These gun buffs hurt moze in 1 specific way

Just like the title says these gun buffs and making more guns viable hurt moze in 1 really interesting way… why even use iron bear. I always felt sad that iron bear always felt meh and just used as a some for the road/ annointment proc.
Idk sure everyones ability does that but moze ability is supposed to last and be amazing in damage AND survivability while have a very large cool down. For as long as the cooldown is when you stay in mech it sure doesnt feel all that strong. Idk all I’m saying is buffs to mech or making some annointments to FINALLY boost mech damage to make mech specific builds better

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I started talking about this yesterday and it’s something that has been discussed ever since the game released. It’s one of the unique problems associated with an action skill like iron bear. If it’s weaker than the on-foot experience, why use it in the first place (apart from ASE activation or avoiding FFYL)? If it’s stronger, then why get out? And with the way the game currently is, one could easily achieve 90% IB uptime. But then, what would be the point of her guns and gear, the main point of the game? And if there was no way around a longer cooldown, then moze would be disadvantaged even further with the importance of ASE anoints. No matter how you look at it, it’s very hard to come out on top here - balancing something like IB is a very fine thread.

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One reason to use Iron Bear is to be able to fight enemies without worrying about going into FFYL… even if you aren’t doing the kind of damage you can do on foot. I think Iron Bear is going to need a damage buff at some point when the new mayhem mode comes out.

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Can kinda confirm. When I made Bear a monster, I suddenly devoted my entire build to keeping that going. To the point of forsaking guns. I wonder if I can balance that in the future.

There is a huge hole in IB skill trees with Salamander and Bear Fist. I think it leaves a ton of room to buff IB considering they aren’t really viable at any Mayhem level. I hope they change those skills to something useful in the future. I don’t believe anyone would miss them.

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I buffed Wild Swing as much as I could and it became…

Just barely usable. But it used more fuel than it would ever return. It’s literally a “pummel one enemy then pop out” style skill. That might be a way to use it. But it’s not ideal.

I couldn’t get Salamanders to be worth anything though :frowning:

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On top of damage, they’d also need to rework how Vampyr interacts with IB since those skills don’t do splash.

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The problem, in my opinion, is design in terms of what makes a good skill and design in terms of player fun. At the moment the Bear needs to be simultaneously buildable for burst damage, but alternatively sustained uptime. This makes balancing each of these use cases very difficult.

I’d say go all-in on making the Bear being time-limited (the autonomous perk definitely should be kept for that kind of build), giving a good rotation between regular gunplay and an all-out mech assault.

Perhaps revisit the skills that allow for sustained uptime of the Bear and turn it into some kind of manouevrability / escape kit?

Exactly why we need those majorly buffed and hopefully next dlc introduced iron bear annointments besides the 1 grenade one that isbt that good tbh since grenades are pretty weak even for moze atleast when killing any badass or boss enemy

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That’s what I was thinking. Force the cooldown and uptime to be set at a certain level. Only problem is all the skills and gear that goes in the face of that, which means they didn’t develop it with that in mind.

The grenade one is really good if you build around it. But I getchu. I want more Bearnointments

More thinkin, God help us,

I’d like to see Salamander and BearFist combined to create a melee class for Moze. Have it give buffs to Melee damage, damage mitigation and have a viable healing tree that can synergize with her other skill trees to give a different option than vampyre for healing. The empty skill set that Shield of Retribution loses could buff railguns and endless mags could buff the mini guns. You can add anointments for melee that would also work with Amara’s melee class as well.

Just a thought.

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TBH, the only reason I ran a Moze was for Iron Bear use.
I know she is just fantastic without ever needing IB, but I have the other VHs for that. I would like to see IB buffed to usefulness in the higher Mayhem levels.

I rarely play my Moze at the moment …

I use IB on M4 with no issues. Even killing Wotan on M4 solo he’s a beast.

The issue isnt that u cant do it if you get the right gear/anno8ntments and what not the issue is how specific some of your stuff has to be and how it can never be as strong as moze by herself without building into bear. Also for the most part the only bear attachments that even do great dmg is missiles NO augment… that’s so trash. Literally every augment and weapon attachment needs major buffs

Agree here sucks that the strongest one is base Vanquishers.

Exploding Bullets and Sabot Rounds don’t really need to be buffed imo if so then a very small amount. Otherwise, 100% right so many aren’t worth using for anything.

That’s true for any weapon. If you have a mod that gives a damage buff for SMG, you’re going to need an SMG to take advantage of it.

I disagree, I %90 of the time run grenades with the fast reload. It procs vampyre and you can face tank a ton of damage.

I think anoitments carry too much weight in most conversations with Moze. She doesn’t proc them often unless it’s a grenade anointment. She’s not supposed to either. I think people forget she has the most powerful action skill in the game. You can hop in a mech and be completely invulnerable for an insane amount of time. Far more than any other VH. Tanking with IB is high level. I’ve had 160k + armor and probably more, but I couldn’t heal enough to break 200k :laughing:. You have multiple ways to play Moze and IB.

It’s rare to get one shot with Moze, unless it’s late and I did something “fun”, like jump off the side of slaughterstar.

Moze herself is invulnerable, sure, but IB still has it’s own health you have to worry about. And damage is king and IB generally cannot output the same damage Moze can do on foot. You also have to account for difficulties with aiming, fuel, and heat/ammo.

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The grenades are in no way as strong as missiles though they are mathematically much weaker dude it’s not even a opinion all the math for moze iron bear is here look at it please. Missiles are by far the best ones and out perform the others by alot.
There are plenty of guns where u honestly dont need any kind of annoint or anything to make them work along with certain class mods to. Hence why they even nerfed almost every gun at the start if the game. My statement is 100%true that iron bear is weaker than regular on foot moze BY A LARGE AMOUNT for quite a few reasons. Why are you trying to fight for literally no inprovments…

Exploding bullets might not exactly need flat dmg buff or a large one but all minigun attachments in general need to consume much less fuel and be easier to cooldown for sure. I think honestly if we just got some real annointments for bear things would be better