#1

With a variable interval reinforcement schedule .

Been playing 8-10 hours a day waiting to go back to work…

And just started thinking about it.

Get that weapon… with the perfect anointment… with the perfect element…

One more try… it will happen… One more try… it will happen… one more try… it will happen…

Just like the rats and the pigeons

Got to go back now and try some more… :roll_eyes: :roll_eyes: :roll_eyes:

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#2

Hasn’t compelled me in that manner. Perhaps your brain was the Skinner box all along! :wink:

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#3

Just like playing slot machines…
The odds are pretty much the same. :wink:
All that for it being scraped by a level increase!

Yeah… I don’t do that. Sure I’ll farm some gear. Give a shot at artifacts. Not wasting too much time or energy on boring farms for impossible odds though.
There’s a lot more fun to have and I look at it as a marathon more than a 100m dash.

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#4

You’re more correct than you may know.

I am familiar with some game companies in the mobile space who have numerous behavior psychologists on their teams who’s job it is to create better trap mechanisms to re-enforce the reward cycle, to induce players to (for the most part) spend more money on in-app purchases to keep getting the endorphins hit of a win or reward.
It’s big business.
–RoA

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#5

“Make these players in to payers”.

I’ve played some mobile games several years ago and I hated how they tried to form my behaviour, later I even felt some sort of constant headache, which ended when I stopped playing these games. It was such a relief. BL series is a skinner box, but that which you can play whenever you want - no time limited event (mostly), no daily, monthly w/e rewards.

Relevant video:

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#6

When the game is connected to an electrified grid that punishes me when I don’t get the right anointment, I’ll be happy in calling it a Skinner Box.

Until then, it’s just a game with pseudo-RNG gear drops.

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#7

When there are real money microtransactions… so… not here… (yet)

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#8

Not all Skinner boxes use negative reinforcement such as shock flooring

So yes… this still qualifies.

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#9

This thread was just an observation of mine.

No judgement was intended.

I wasn’t declaring it as either a good thing, or a bad thing.

Just an acknowledgement of my understanding to be just what it is.

I’m still playing… just aware that what I’m doing is willingly participating in what I believe to be a Skinner box.

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#10

Not all Skinner boxes use electric shocks, this is true. However, this doesn’t automatically make your comparison apt.

You want folks to just . . . agree with you or something? Would it make a difference if I wall of texted on this?

What you’re describing is a gameplay loop. All games have them. Even linear FPS types have them (though you could probably separate out room-by-room clears, like, a lot of the smaller parts of Surface Tension in Half-Life, compared to the overarching progression of building up an arsenal of weapons only to lose them all around that time).

The point of a Skinner box is to teach specific behaviour. Simply repeating the same behaviour over and over with no variant in stimuli from the box (or game, apparently) doesn’t qualify.

I mean, if you just wanted to say “grinding can be a bit tedious in BL3”, a lot of folks would be nodding their head. If you want to talk about operant conditioning, well, people are going to chip in there.

@RavenOfArisia makes a good point for mobile games design, for example. But that would still require tying to Borderlands 3.

A lot of games companies full stop employ some form of psychology. The point of a game is to entertain (through whatever medium, from Animal Crossing all the way to Resident Evil), for which at least a basic understanding of what works in a particular genre is key. Psychology, specifically player psychology, is a huge part of video games. Some of it is abused, no argument. But weapon farming in a Borderlands game isn’t a Skinner box, no.

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#11

The Skinner Box is also known as the Operant Conditioning Chamber

#12

Loot oriented games all are basically just skinner boxes, just designed to get a different kind of behavior out of the player, which is why I always say that certain people probably shouldn’t play them or - like me - play them on schedule for self-control. That sounds absolutely absurd to some, but the factor of addiction is extremely strong in games like Destiny, Borderlands or even some collectathons.

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#13

More like a Pavlov box because every time I hear the “cha ching” of a legendary drop I drool a lil bit.

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#14

Yup, I know. Operant conditioning is the general theory relevant to the practical experiment. I was trying to explain the difference in your post vs. reactions to it.

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#15

LOVE IT! I am almost certified as a BCBA and this got a chuckle out of me. Very nice.

#16

So, getting a legendary drop is similar to pressing the specific button when the green light is on. But I guess playing the game is the green light which would be a discriminative stimulus… I think… With the loot drop being the reinforcer for pressing the green light (playing the game). Could be way off… Just thinking through it in behavioral terms. EDIT: Think I’m wrong… Playing the game is a response to a stimulus but what signals the availability of reinforcement? Is it possible for the playing of the game to be a stimulus and a response? Sorry if this seems silly… Got a test coming up. lol

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#17

No one is disagreeing with you. He is discussing this in behavioral terms and as you likely know Skinner is considered the godfather of Radical Behaviorism. When the gameplay loop you describe incorporates a specific consequence for a specific response that occurs after a specific antecedent, it can be called (very loosely) a Skinner box. No one is wrong. Two people explaining the same thing in different terms. Edit: There IS a variant in stimuli. Don’t forget the consequence is a stimulus as well. Gold drops represent a different consequence much like the green light in the Skinner box represented the availability of positive reinforcement. We could discuss this for a while but until we came to a consensus on what the the MO’s, stimuli and consequences are, we wouldn’t get far. I’m game… I love this ■■■■.

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#18

I don’t care who disagrees with me, I was trying to understand where the other poster was coming from, that was all :slight_smile:

The problem with making a definition so loose that you can “very loosely” call it a Skinner box is that the term starts to lose actual meaning. I’m a big fan of linguistics and evolving language, but expanding the scope of a Skinner box to mean “any product that causes a human to exhibit a specific predictable response” kinda ruins the whole principle.

It’s not that specific, right? There are no downsides except for the time invested, which the person is already investing. Unless you frame “never playing the game again” as the negative behaviour modification (which is problematic, because there are neutral reasons for tiring of a game, and even positive ones when it comes to % completion and what players look for in completing a game), there isn’t one. Not getting the item you want isn’t the electric shock, because even if you get the item, it’s always possible to want more. Getting the item in question doesn’t necessarily break the loop (and definitely won’t, come Mayhem 2.0).

I get it, it’s always fun to inject some psychology into video games. Plenty of it exists regardless (and video games are designed for target audiences - psychology!). I object to overusing the framing of a Skinner box to argue that the player is being punished for a low occurrence of “perfect” gear drops.

#19

The Skinner Box didn’t only use punishment. There was reinforcement via food delivery when the pigeons (believe it was pigeons) pushed the lever or button when the green light was on. Anyway, punishment is defined as a consequence that decreases future specific response rate. It’s absolutely not punishment. There were different “Skinner boxes” or experiments very similar in design. Skinner box is designed to regulate the rate of responding and determine how reinforcement schedules alter the rate. That’s it. Anyway, it wasn’t so much a discussion of psychology as player behavior.

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#20

It was rats.
Only know it because I didn’t knew, or remembered, what it was and searched it yesterday.
But yeah. Pretty much what you said. :+1:

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