So I did some testing on this. I didn’t test on the raid boss, so things may change there; this is just test dummy stuff. The short of it is
- Mouthwash’s Toothpick bonus is +200%, which is additive with AR damage and gun damage bonuses
- Toothpick crits for 16.7% less than a normal hit (avoid headshots – this may be related to fewer pellets hitting the smaller head on the target dummy, so a crit spot in the middle of an enemy might still do more damage if the extra pellets do regular damage and a couple pellets do crit damage)
- Toothpick and amp damage do 3.5 times more damage than the cards suggest (I think this is related to how close the target dummy was and unlisted pellets – actual damage is probably lower as you get further from the target).
- Amp damage takes a huge nerf while Mouthwash is equipped, making Mouthwash only about 30% better than nothing if you’re already using the Bee
- Fire damage per second is pretty worthless compared to base damage (45k to 90k per tick, compared millions per hit of base damage), and is totally unaffected by Mouthwash, AR bonuses, or gun damage bonuses.
The Toothpick bonus is +200%, which is additive with the AR damage bonus, and both are additive with the “gun damage” bonus on the Legendary Siren class mod.
However, Toothpick has an inherent damage bonus of +250% which is multiplicative to everything else.
Weirdly, Toothpick does 16.7% less damage on a crit than a regular hit. Neither of these last two facts are affected by Mouthwash; that’s just base Toothpick behavior.
Damage = Card Damage × (100% + 250% Toothpick Bonus) × (100% + 250% Mouthwash Bonus + Assault Rifle Bonus + Gun Damage Bonus)
Damage = 182k × (1 + 2.5) × (1 + 2.5 + 0.475 + 0.34)
Damage = 182k × 3.5 × 4.315
Damage = 182k × 15.1025
Damage = 2749k
The +250% inherent Toothpick damage also applies to amp damage (specifically tested with the Bee). However, once Mouthwash is equipped, amp damage is drastically reduced, meaning Mouthwash only gives a 28.1% total increase if you’re using the Bee and a Siren mod or 33.8% increase if you’re just using a Bee.
SetupLevel 77 siren. Completely reset my skills.
I’ve got a Bearcat I just picked up to test the base AR damage. Bearcat is an AR with 294990x3 damage on the card. I’ve also got a Toothpick with 182456x2 damage on the card.
To test damage increases, I’ve got a Mouthwash with +47.5% AR damage, and a Legendary Siren class mod with +34% gun damage.
I went to the target dummy in Sanctuary and got some numbers. I aimed at his belly button to avoid crits.
Bearcat Assault Rifle
Bearcat only: 294k
Bearcat with Mouthwash: 435k (48.0% increase)
Bearcat with Mouthwash and Siren mod: 534k (22.8% increase from Mouthwash; 81.6% increase from base)
Expected numbers were 294990 for base, 435110.25 for Mouthwash, and either 534406.85 (AR and gun damage are additive with 81.5% total increase) or 583047.735 (AR and gun damage are multiplicative with 97.65% total increase) for equipped.
Based on testing, it looks like AR and gun damage are additive with each other, and both items are working properly with AR damage. It also appears that the floating damage numbers truncate, rather than round.
Toothpick Assault Rifle
The Toothpick numbers were more wonky, because I got three different damage values out of it for each setup. The third number is double the first number, which looks like it’s counting both pellets under a single damage value. I really don’t know what the middle number is though. (I suspect it’s related to unlisted pellets somehow I’m not quite seeing.)
Toothpick only: 638k, 957k, 1277k (249.7%, 424.5%, 599.9% increases over card damage)
Toothpick with Mouthwash: 2219k, 3328k, 4438k (247.8%, 247.8%, 247.5% increases)
Toothpick with Mouthwash and Siren mod: 2434k, 3651k, 4868k (9.7%, 9.7%, 9.7% increases from Mouthwash ; 281.5%, 281.5%, 281.2% increases from base)
(Of note, fire DoT seems to be consistently around 45k or 90k regardless of gear.)
Base damage is already way above what we would expect from the Toothpick item card (from 3.5 to 7 times expected damage). Even with both projectiles hitting at the same time, we should only have 364912 damage, so the Toothpick has an automatic +250% damage increase. (Though as I think about it, I think it’s just the unlisted pellets, and the exact increase probably depends on how big the target is.)
Given how close the Mouthwash numbers are to 247.5%, it looks like the Toothpick-specific bonus is +200%, which is additive with the AR bonus of +47.5%.
With the Siren mod tacked on, it’s pretty close to +281.5%, suggesting again that the gun damage bonus is additive with the AR and Toothpick bonuses. 200% + 47.5% + 34% = 281.5% bonus, for a total of 381.5% of base damage.
Next, I shot some crits on his head with Toothpick (no screenshots because I was feeling lazy).
Just Toothpick: 532k, 1064k,
Toothpick and Mouthwash and Siren mod: 2028k, 4056k
Those are +281.2% and +281.2% increases, like we’d expect from the above math. Here, I’m only getting two sets of numbers, which are single and double values, sensibly enough. Very oddly though, crit damage seems to be lower than regular damage (16.7% lower to be precise; body shots do 20% higher damage if we reverse it).
Testing The Bee
Adding a level 74 Bee with +786890 amp damage, my best damage with Mouthwash and the Siren mod was 5716k, which is 848k more than normal (4868k). The bonus damage is 7.7% more than expected from the Bee card.
With just Mouthwash (no Siren mod), Bee damage was 5394k; 956k bonus (over 4438k). The bonus is 21.5% more than expected.
With just the Siren mod (no Mouthwash), Bee damage was 4461k; 2754k bonus (over 1707k). The bonus is 250% more than expected.
With no relic or mod, Bee damage was 4031k; 2754k bonus (over 1277k). The bonus is 250% more than expected.
I’m struggling to put a formula to this data, but it appears that Toothpick’s inherent +250% damage bonus applies to the Bee’s amp damage until Mouthwash is equipped, then amp damage is drastically lowered.
The upshot of this is that Mouthwash only provides a 28.1% increase in damage if you’ve got a Bee and Siren mod equipped, or 33.8% increase if you’ve just got a Bee equipped.
Thoughts on Raid Items
I haven’t actually done the new raid boss, so there may be factors I’m missing. Don’t take these musings as gospel truth.
My level 74 Retainer has 471k capacity, which is only 21% higher than my level 74 Bee’s 390k capacity, and although Retainer has a much lower recharge delay (2.13 vs 7.28), it also has much lower recharge rate (80k vs 274k), so total recharge time is comparable (8.02 vs 8.70).
With the Siren mod giving an 80% reduction in recharge time (assuming 10/5 in Ward), the Bee is actually much faster (1.46 delay plus 1.42 recharge time for 2.88 total compared to Retainer’s 0.43 delay plus 5.89 recharge time for 6.32 total). Obviously, other classes don’t have the Ward skill, so that doesn’t apply everywhere, but the base shield is still pretty good.
For a non-melee character, the roid damage is worthless, so there’s not a huge loss in taking the Bee over the Retainer (having not done the fight yet, I don’t know how important jump height and speed are), at which point Mouthwash isn’t a terribly important relic and could be replaced.
- A Blood of the Ancients relic gives about +50% health and +70% ammo capacity so an AR ammo version might be a lot better than Mouthwash.
- The 39% AR damage from Heart of the Ancients is almost as good as 47.5% on Mouthwash, and has improved FFYL bonuses.
- The 39% elemental bonus from Bone of the Ancients is as good or better than Mouthwash’s AR bonus, and has Action Skill bonuses that could be quite beneficial. (As I recall, elemental bonus damage is multiplicative with the other bonuses, so 1.39 × 1.34 = 1.863, which is higher than 1 + 0.475 + 0.34 = 1.815 by a bit. If you’ve got large bonuses to AR and/or gun damage, elemental pushes ahead even farther.)