People will almost always choose the path of least resistance because it’s always going to be the most fun. This is pretty much game design 101.
SMH You miss the point. It has nothing to do with a tournament, I was using that as an example of equal rewards for unequal mechanics. If you get rewarded the same whether you have modifiers on or off, then why have them on?
Other games have different mechanics. There is also precedence. The only precedence we have IN BORDERLANDS is mayhem and OP levels. Everything else is basically untested. What works in say Destiny, probably won’t work in Borderlands because, despite the similarities, the mechanics and gameplay loops have a lot of fundamental differences.
Yea if your goal is to get X weapon that only drops in m6 or higher, and you want an m10 scaled version, what are you going to do? Are you going to purposely make it harder for yourself, and therefore more time consuming, to get the same reward as if you just turn off the modifiers?
No, you are going to do what every normal person would do. Turn off modifiers, farm the gear, then maybe turn them back on later when you are just playing around not trying to get some reward.
Lol what?! You actually think this? You do know most games have difficulty settings that give zero reward for playing on harder difficulty settings right? There are people that live for the challenge of playing games on the hardest setting. I don’t get any reward for beating CoD on Veteran Mode, or Uncharted on Nightmare mode, or Kingdom Hearts on Critical Mode. In terms of Borderlands, I didn’t get any reward for playing BL2 at OP8, or playing TTM in BL3, etc. Yet I, and many many others, have done all of these things because we enjoy the challenge (actually I thought OP8 had garbage-ass scaling mechanics and I hated it, but that’s beside the point).
Sorry man, but your argument holds absolutely no water and if what you say was actually true, then no game ever should include a hard mode. If you think that, I don’t think you’re the guy to be talking about “video game design 101”.
Maybe YOU need rewards to play on the hardest setting, but for many, the challenge is enough. However, as I have said 3 times now that you keep ignoring, they could provide some ways to add extra perks to the modifiers similar to how Destiny does things. This would solve your perceived problem.
10 levels above you which is like an 80% damage reduction.
Uh that’s what I wrote above. BECAUSE enemies were 10 levels above you they received a 60% damage reduction. Not 80%. Lots of information on this at the BL2 forums. And health regen was annoying for unoptimized set-ups, but tbh it was so slow it was negligible so long you were element matching and slagging - I have 2 clips, one using an absolute meme set-up, just tearing OP8/10, and you will never notice the health regen. I will be happy to provide more evidence if you need so.
Firstly, you didn’t absolutely need slag at OP8/10 - but you are right in that for most builds if was a necessity. BUT BL3 has its own slag as well - which has been critical since the days of M4 - yes I’m talking about anointments. It was their way of artificially conflating the base weapon DPS by basically an equivalent (or in some cases greater) amount than slag. Is anointments a better system? Probably - but it doesn’t change the fact that an equivalent system to slag exists in BL3.
I was not meant as an insult in any way - I have an Amara myself. It’s true though - Driver Amara is much easier to play than Fl4k - and explains your comments of why you felt health-scaling offered no difficulty spike when enemy health went up. As a Fl4k - you have a kill or be killed playstyle - because you don’t have lifesteal, you have a bunch of stack-based skills on a timer forcing you the play a momentum based playstyle, and lots of other limitations that means you easily get overwhelmed.
Thanks for agreeing with my point about how higher Mayhem levels made many weapons less relevant. Which is fair - any difficulty spike does that. Both Mayhem and OP levels naturally act as gatekeepers, with the health spike naturally meaning the wheat will be separated from the chaff.
Yeah, I’m getting good results - using obviously overtuned weapons like the Lob or the all-new M2.0/Cartel Legendaries. Which just demonstrates GB doesn’t know in the slightest how to balance MH 2.0 - instead of building around a difficulty where a decent pool of weapons are still viable - they just powercreep by introducing new and ridiculous weapons far stronger than the previous meta. You say eventually M10 will be trivial - I don’t disagree with that. Because GB ‘balances’ the game by powercreep - the next Takedown weapons, the DLC3 weapons - will all be scaled properly for Mayhem 2.0, allowing it to become much less of a challenge. I mean if every weapon if a Yellowcake and Sandhawk… But that’s a terrible way to design and balance a game.
The reason the Legendary Soldier was the most used Axton COM at OP10 wasn’t because the rest of them weren’t viable - Chaotic Evil Ranger, Leg Ranger, Rifleman, Leg Engineer all worked well still - but because objectively, as a gun COM, the Leg soldier was the best. You could get theoretically better DPS with the CE Ranger and Rifleman - but you were sacrificing a huge amount of QoL. But that was Axton’s problem - I still have no idea what GB was thinking when they gave all the other classes amazing Gen 2 legendary COMs, but gave Axton the Leg Ranger (which was bugged), the Leg Engineer (basically a weaker soldier) and the Pointman (sigh…). That in large part constrained his versatility. But his strongest build wasn’t the Leg Soldier though - it was the Grenadier/Veteran set-ups. So Axton had lots of viable builds at OP10 - its just that any minmaxer (which most of us are) had no reason to use the other 5 viable COMs he had apart from the Grenadier cos they performed similar functions but were inferior.
I’m not sure what Axton playstyle got ruined by OP8/10 - all the core ones still work. Grenade build? Check. Splash builds? Check. Gemini builds? Check. Even gimmick Pointman builds? Check. Once more if you need video evidence, I will be more than happy to oblige.
THAT SAID, as I mentioned above - I felt the balance of OP8 was perfect. Almost everything worked so long you built for it and understood game mechanics. But OP10 began pushing the game a little too far, and made quite a few average to decent weapons less viable. OP10 also began showing some of the bad habits that BL3 would bring forth in full fore - the last DLC, Fight for Sanctuary, basically introduced a bunch of OP weapons that were not in line with the balance of the rest of the game. None were as dumb as the Yellowcake or Sandhawk - but by base stats proved the gamemakers were trying to compensate for the enhanced difficulty in an inorganic manner.
Pretty sure we are not saying remove them - but give an option to play without them. If according to you the majority of the playerbase love these modifiers, then they will still keep them on, and you guys can have your fun. I really don’t see why we cannot have the best of both worlds.
Slag yes - I already explained how Slag was BL3s anointments, just anointments was more elegant. But Beehawk? Grog? None of those things were vaguely necessary. Grog was just a crutch for poor players who wanted to Beehawk instead of actually playing the game. If you wore an actual defensive shield, you don’t need the Grog to stay alive. And if you knew what weapons to use - which at OP8 there were a ton (less so at OP10) - Beehawking was always superfluous. I don’t have loads of videos at OP10, but I am happy to give evidence to the contrary. All I know is that I almost never played with Moxxi weapons at any OP level, and I sure as hell didn’t Beehawk. Axton was my first toon to make it through DigiPeak to OP8 - and I didn’t use either Moxxi, Bee or any super meta options (I did it with a Gem-Slag build). The Grog/Beehawk being a necessity was such a toxic mentality that us forum users spent the longest time trying to eliminate.
I dunno - I chose to stick to OP8/10 - though it was categorically proven the loot at OP10 was 0% better than OP0. And if what you say is true - then everyone would be playing at M1 right now with the easiest modifiers once we have farmed the Mayhem loot. Yet the group of us here are persisting in M10 though we hate the crap out of the modifiers. I guarantee you, if the modifiers are removed - all of us will still play at M10 - though it is the hardest mode and the ‘path of the most resistance’. We want the option to switch of the modifiers because we find them unfun - not because they are hard. If you find them fun - then more power to you. But don’t go about claiming people pick the path of least resistance - people play games because they are fun, not because they are easy.
I think this 2 statements basically sum it up:
If people turn the modifiers off - it will because we find they suck (subjectively of course) - not because they are hard.
Exactly. I don’t mind the difficulty, I just find them to often promote playing the game in weird, unnatural ways. I could probably be fine with the ability to actually customize your selection though, rather than just re-rolling which I find to be tedious.
The one and only reason why you would and should play a game on a higher difficulty is because it is more fun that way.
Nobody should ever force himself in a higher difficulty just for the bether reward.
I honestly dont care about the modifiers at all when farming bosses, except the two very hard crit ones. The modifiers are only really annoying in day to day mobbing .
I dont know what your argument is really. Your essentially upset that if the option to turn off modifiers is implemented, people will stop using them. I’m still at a loss as to why you give a **** quite frankly. It’s not a competitive game and whether people enjoy the modifiers or not is entirely subjective. What you are essentially saying is play with these arbitrary modifiers because without them the game would be easier . I mean… who cares? How does it affect you in any way ?
I am objectively having less fun with the game than I was a few days ago. How is this possibly a good thing in any way shape or form ? It’s not. Hence I’m here suggesting modifiers can be turned off . Not for you , or anyone who wants them , but for those who dont want them
If the reward is the same, people will always take the path of least resistance.
If there is the same loot/XP/mayhem specific gear between the options to play the game with or without modifiers (basically easier or harder) there is no reason to play the harder version. Might as well just delete mayhem from the game and stick in OP levels, because that’s what would happen.
SOME people may SOMETIMES put on the modifiers to have more fun, but if their goal is to get better loot they won’t do it. You can tell me you will until you are blue in the face, but if the game is easier and you spend less time farming without modifiers you will turn them off the farm in a heartbeat. This is basica psychology here.
Considering that modifiers are a core mechanic of mayhem mode, this is a bad decision.
Then they could just you know - increase the quality of loot if you choose to play with modifiers - as was the case in Lvl 9 Mutator. Perhaps an Easy modifer adds +100% Loot, Medium +200% … Very Hard +400% - and these cumulate if you pick 4 modifiers. Maybe lock some gear behind Very Hard modifiers - I don’t know what else we need to say to show that we just want to play the game vanilla - regardless of the reward.
Then why did ANYONE play at OP10. The reward was absolutely the same as OP0 - there was no increase in loot quality, there was no increase in drops. You are the one missing the point - people aren’t picking the path of least resistance - we just want to have fun. And if you ain’t having fun then what’s the point of playing at all.
I found this to be the case. Take the Westergun. In the old M4 it was still a capable SMG. The Mayhem 2.0 M7 version is not a feasible weapon to use on M7. It just does not scale well to the level. Trust me I tried.
The majority of our old weapons I have found are severeley lacking at the higher levels (and I mean in the level they are for).
Some still do well, like the Lob, Krakatoa, Hellshock. But those seem to be exceptions now.
I hope GBX looks into this because I do not like having the useable weapon pool shrunk too low…
This has been disproven by multiple posts already. No one is failing to understand your general point; it’s just that you are failing to understand the rebuttal arguments that have refuted the point you’re trying to make. And you have also purposefully ignored arguments that have provided ways to still provide some type of reward, just for good measure.
You just keep saying the same thing over and over, while ignoring all of the points that have proven yours incorrect.
They could, but again you are gutting a core mechanic of mayhem to satisfy this. The modifiers ARE mayhem mode.
Dude yes you did. You got loot scaled to OP10, which had higher damage. That is the reward, STRONGER GEAR. The rewards were not at all the same, I’m not even sure where you came up with this. It’s pretty obvious when you look at a level 80 weapon compared to an OP10 item that there is a very clear difference.
This is just a matter of balance, which Gearbox shouldn’t be held to get it right out of the gate. The fact they have done nothing but buff the crap out of a lot of weapons suggests they will look into this and make adjustments. Mayhem 2.0 just came out 3 days ago. Stuff will change. Including modifiers, I’m sure of it.
No it hasn’t been disproven. What has been proven is that people take the path of less resistance. This is basic psychology.
The reason they refuse to acknowledge what I’m saying is not because they don’t understand it, it’s because “I want to turn off mayhem modifiers and nothing will change my mind.” It’s cognitive dissonance that you guys are experiencing, refuse to actually admit that if given the choice between modifiers on or off, with the same reward, that you would turn them off. IDC how much you tell me you would turn them on, when it comes down to it you WILL turn them off to get what you want. You’d only turn them on infrequently for the novelty of playing with them, when they are supposed to be a core mechanic of mayhem mode.
I completely agree it’s not hard to understand at all… the only person making it harder than it is you.
Your argument is that if modifiers are able to be turned off , people will because it’s easier.
One question: if that is true, why would those same people play on M10? You can get the same gear on M6 and play on M6. Its the path or least resistance as you say , so why do people play on a higher mayhem level that provides ZERO additional benefits over M6?
It’s because people like a challenge. But the thing is it has to be a FUN challenge . If it’s just a challenge that is tedious and not engaging, people won’t do it .
If your argument is correct , then people would just play and farm M6.
What exactly does the 75% less critical damage modifier do that is meaningful or engaging or even challenging ? Its encouraging you to go for easier body shots and not more precise head shots
How is having 100% less handling in exchange for 25% damage a meaningful and engaging mechanic? Is that enjoyable when you can hit the broad side of a bus at point blank range ?
Even the less obnoxious ones like the one that drops the rotating lasers , what does that do besides occasionally giving you a tanky and stationary target that you just stand a few feet from and rain bullets on until It blows up ? Mindless much
Nevernind the mechanics, how about the multicolored visual vomit that a lot of the modifiers shove into our faces in a already visually overloaded game ?
People want the best stuff. The best stuff is locked behind m10, technically because you can get ALL gear and it’s scaled to the highest damage. It’s a literal no brainer to play without modifiers if you had the choice and wanted that scaled gear.
If damage scaling stopped at m6, yes people would just play m6. That’s how that works. But scaling goes to m10, therefore they will play on m10 for m10 scaled loot.
Explain to me then why anyone plays a hard mode in a video game ever? Most do not give you a better reward, so by your logic they shouldn’t exist then right?
Yes it has, you just are not understanding it. Whether you’re doing it intentionally or not is hard to tell.
I mean if the modifiers are as fun as you claim them to be, then most people would still play with them - and they would be far from gutted. If everyone chooses to play without the modifiers and ‘gut’ them - that would prove them to be a poor design choice to begin with - because ultimately the intention of the game is to have fun, not to be a pain in the ass. Personally, I think we will get the middle ground - many clearly enjoy the crazy that comes along with the modifiers and will continue to play with them. But lots of players, especially the hardcore, minmax playerbase, will switch them off for the same reason we enjoyedthe previous M4.
That’s just a technicality if you played at the same difficulty - then there was absolutely no need for that higher level gear. No one went to OP10 farmed up a bunch of OP10 loot and then went back to OP0 to play. People farmed the loot at the difficulty they chose to play.
Because there usually is some sort of reward for it. A special ending. A special outfit. A whole lotta stuff.
A handful of people do it for bragging rights, but those people are the VAST minority.
I doubt any of you would play m10 with modifiers if you got the exact same gear without them. You’d do it here and there, but not all the time that’s for sure.
The enemies in M10 have scaled as much if not more as your M10 weapons, it’s all ****ing relative!! If you farm a Maggie at M10 and shoot enemies in M10, are you going to kill them faster than if you had farmed that same Maggie at M6 and killed enemies with it at M6 ??
