#93

I’ll ignore the personal attack and just tell you that, in HW1 Classic, there was no scaler. Anyone telling you there was one present is lying, as all levels were preset: otherwise, the game would be unplayable.

#94

There was scaling. If you want I can dig through the available HW1 sourcecode again and point you to where it is implemented.

#95

i have been getting access violation crash alot in MP, most of us in our MP group are after the patch.
not sure if they are getting the exact same error, but are getting a AccessViolation crash

here is the error from the log.
“Read from location c2bfb2b6 caused an access violation.”
another one is
“Read from location bf800014 caused an access violation.”

what does it mean?
how do i fix this?

#96

270s actually… MINIMUM, you forgot the 70 sec time to make a research ship. vs the 40 sec or w/e it is to make a cap facility…

#97

For some levels it was very subtle but it did happen on all levels after level 1 (mission 11 had no scaling of enemy ships).

Scaling for HW levels. Baseline.
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 1 0.0 0.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 2 2385.0 4000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 3 2180.0 5900.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 4 4200.0 7575.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 5 5380.0 11500.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 6 100.0 9500.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 7 10000.0 24000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 8 10603.0 25950.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 9 10000.0 27000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 10 15000.0 31000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 11 19000.0 38000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 12 29000.0 55500.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 13 30000.0 45000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 14 30000.0 55000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 15 30000.0 60000.0
BaseFleetStrengthForLevel 16 30500.0 64000.0

Level 2: Notice the numbers at the end of each line below. The first number is the base the 4th number is the max number. In this scenario you can have 3, 4, or 5 frigates show up depending on where you are in relation to the values above.

Ships EnemyFrig01,-31897.9,-14674.4,0.0,-135.0,R2,StandardFrigate,1,BROAD_FORMATION|?|1,0,?,2
Ships EnemyFrig02,-33426.1,-14001.3,0.0,-135.0,R2,StandardFrigate,0,BROAD_FORMATION|?|1,0,?,2
Ships ImNotDeadYet,-32954.6,-16780.7,0.0,-135.0,R2,StandardFrigate,1,WALL_FORMATION|?|1,0,?,1

I’m off topic, I know… Sorry.

3 Likes
#98

The Homeworld 1 scaling is not nearly as aggressive as it is in Homeworld 2 and Remastered, though. Try capturing all the Ion Frigates in Bridge of Sighs and then look at the enemy fleet in Chapel Perilous in Classic, then do the same in Remastered.

1 Like
#99

I know. I had over 600 ships going into the last level. Could not win. MS died 5 minutes in. 100 ions came up from below and I couldn’t kill them fast enough.

#100

It was not a personal attack.

I’m just saying scaling exists and that Gearbox won’t take it out, nor will they tone it down. Please read the forums more thoroughly before you make claims about scaling not existing. Like someone else said, it’s been mentioned many times before. As for the level of scaling, I have to disagree with you. I think it’s fair as it is.

#101

Sometimes its not what youre saying, but how you say it.

1 Like
#102

Theoretically if the salvage mechanic isn’t abused, the scaling would naturally cap at player max fleet size. Thus if you have a maxed out fleet, the scaling for the last mission would be capped at a certain size and that size would be challenging but not impossible to beat.

However, because the salvage mechanic is abused (or I should rather say ‘gamed’) as much as it is, especially because of the ion frigates you can cap in the 3rd last mission, a situation can occur where the last mission becomes very difficult to complete. This is easily fixed by scrapping all the excess ships prior to entering the last mission.

It’s basically a case of where the player breaks the system in an unintended way. It’s cool that the player can break it in this way, but it should not be without its consequences. I can make the argument that if the scaling mechanic was capped at what the player’s fleet would be maxed the the game would quickly and early on become boring and easy, thus sacrificing narrative and challenge and reducing the overall experience to be non-memorable yawn fest.

In fact you already have this where the scaling is/was not working correctly for the Garden of Kadesh missions. A lot of people complained that these missions were boring and easy because the scaling was not working correctly. Now imagine how anti-climatic the last mission would be if the same happened there? This is a ‘problem’ very few players will run into on their first play through (I most certainly didn’t back in 1999 nor did I run into it in either of my playthroughs in HWR) Vets who do run into this issue know what the cause is and know what the solution is as well. I believe the mechanic should stay in place as the experience of new players going through the game for the first time is more important for the health of the series in the long run than the few vets that spend the dozens of hours to game an admittedly gamey and broken mechanic.

Just my 2c

1 Like
#103

This guy knows exactly what I’m talking about. Scaler in HW1 is hardly a “scaler”, when you compare it to HW2 and Remastered. Or are people trying to tell me that Gearbox wants us to fight 50+ Assault Frigates in Sea of Lost Souls, a mission intended only to be for recuperation, not battles?

I would appreciate if you didn’t post as though you are speaking on behalf of the entire community and Gearbox, it is just your opinion. I very much hate people who try to act like they’re the “community”, when people have their own opinions.

I don’t mean to be rude, but considering your post, I would suspect you’ve probably never played HW1 Classic whatsoever. Go compare HW1 Classic Mission 9, to HW1 Remastered Mission 9. Remastered is clearly not balanced, nor even fair in any way. It should be toned down considerably.

I didn’t pay £100 for a completely different gaming experience, I paid £100 to get the same gaming experience with better graphics. Stop trying to suggest that the scaler works, because getting 50+ enemy assault frigates on Mission 9 with a modest fleet is certainly NOT balanced! >_>

Answer me this: why should people be punished for capturing loads of ships? HW1 pushed the idea that you should be capturing enemy vessels to get powerful ships early on, but the HW2 scaler system is the whole reason why people stopped bothering to capture ships. Tell me: why should HW1 RM be affected by that horrible scaler as well? You might as well just remove salvage corvettes from the game completely and disallow capturing!

#104

Well technically you payed 30 for the game and 70 for the art book, model ship, box and soundtracks. Regarding sea of lost souls, sending in 50 defenders and all your corvettes to attack the ghost ship should result in only mild strike craft losses and 50 extra assault frigates that you can salvage in the next mission (because of bug) to replace any losses.

Now lets address salvage corvettes themselves. These are extremely powerful, flexible and useful ships both in a strategic and tactical sense but the mechanic is in no way perfect. It’s a trap I see a lot of vets fall into, this idea that HW1C did no wrong, that it was perfectly designed. It was unfortunately not, especially when it came to the capturing mechanic. It’s a mechanic that can easily be gamed and abused beyond what was originally intended. I say originally intended by the fact that the scaling mechanic ‘capped out’ eventually, basically not taking into account the lengths at witch the salvage mechanic could be abused. Also by the fact that they hard capped it in HW2. It is common however for mechanics to be used in a way that was unintended and that’s part of what makes games, games and more importantly, gamers, gamers. We game systems, break them, it’s what we do.

Now the way salvettes could be used in a strategic sense is quite obvious, increased fleet size and/or more resources to replace losses could not be discounted in classic as resources was a bit more scarce but if you were good tactically it wasn’t really necessary. It did however allow interesting tactics like having large frig fleets and allowing you to ignore strike craft if you wanted etc. However only when the salvaging mechanic was abused to the extreme by salvaging HUNDREDS of frigates does the scaling break down in HWR. It is not case of if you dare use it to salvage one or even dozens of ships it becomes impossible, only when you take it to the very extreme (aka abuse/game/break the system) does it begin to become a problem.

However salvettes are also quite powerful tactically. They can be used to disable large enemy assets during a battle for little investment. In many ways they are some of the most powerful ships in the game because a few of them can completely nullify the threat of the biggest and baddest ship in the game (HCs) so to suggest that they are useless because of scaling is not exactly accurate.

Also the reason why salvaging/capping isn’t used as much in HW2 is most definitely not because of the scaler lol. It’s because you are actually hard capped in ships you can have. It’s not physically possible to have more of a type of ship than you can build normally. Basically the developers saw that the mechanic without hard caps was broken in HW1C and thus fixed it in two to be hard capped. This allowed them more control over the narrative and flow of the game. You are however entirely within your rights to feel that this was a bad move, or not. I’m merely saying what the developers did (and guess at their motives based on that).

Look I get why it’s a problem for some people. There is a certain level of fun to be had from having a super fleet of 600+ ships and having it completely and utterly obliterate any enemy resistance. Where there is not way possible for the enemy to ever win in any way whatsoever, making the last mission impossible to lose. I feel it’s a bit boring (thats why I like rogue likes) but it does makes the player feel smart for ‘outsmarting’ the game/developers. In this case however the devs ‘outsmarted’ the players and I can understand why that doesn’t sit well with some.

TLDR: Just because you can doesn’t mean it was intended that way. Once you are outside of ‘the way it was intended’ you’re on your own :wink:

#105

Well, you could capture an infinite number of ships. HW1 Classic did have a limit for number of ships in a fleet, but it was never stated and the limit was only used to prevent you building more ships, rather than preventing you from capturing at all.

The HW2 scaler was partially responsible for removing the purpose of capturing ships. Too many HW2 missions had you in massive dogfights, where capturing was hardly a priority and the capturing mechanic simply meant that it was a waste of resources. Some will disagree though, but I didn’t see the value in capturing a ship in HW2 at all.

There was a strategy some people used in Classic days where you captured everything and built no vessels, except more salvage corvettes. Should these strategies be killed off because of the enemy scaler system that HW1 Remastered uses?

When I compare the games with each other:

  • Between HW1 Classic and HW1 Remastered, no strategy used in HW1 Classic would work, due to the vast differences in gameplay mechanics. This means people need to waste time making up a new strategy.
  • Between HW2 Classic and HW2 Remastered, any strategy used in HW2 Classic would work, because the gameplay differences are not noticeable and the game behaves the same, even if a little easier than it should be.

I get that problems would occur because of the import to the HW2 engine. However, we’re 3-4 months down the road and virtually nothing has changed with the HW1 campaign. Heavy Corvettes still fail to work properly, they still die to basic fighters, the lack of fuel removes elements of strategy that made the Kadesh missions difficult in the first place, etc. I could go on and on, but I feel the scaler in HW1 Remastered needs to be toned down considerably, instead of spawning an insane number of ships on some levels.

#106

Not a fan of selective quoting. It means people can make me say whatever they want and build strawman arguments :wink: It’s a good sign for me to start bowing out of a discussion. I’ve said what I wanted anyways so it’s all good.

#107

I agree! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

1 Like
#108

Don’t bow out yet. There’s another side to this.

I can deal with the scaling because I know how to deal with it. The better I get and the more tricks I try, the more the odds stack against me. The only level I have issue with is the last one but not in the way you would think. With a massive fleet of over 600 ships the last level is impossible to beat… for now. I’m not done yet. I push this game to the limits and use the games glitches to my advantage. For me it’s not the checkered flag at the finish line but rather the struggle to get there. Different games have different goals. There’s many ways to play and no wrong way. So scaling is irrelevant to me because all it does for me is to present many more different ways to play. It’s all good, whether it be HW classic or HWRM.

#109

Hah the irony! I assume that if you quote even a bit of my post you’re quoting all of it, so I’m glad you agree that people are building strawman arguments :wink: Works both ways now doesn’t it.

#110

You got it. I couldn’t pass the opportunity :innocent:

#111

Mine layers are amazing defense against that sort of thing :stuck_out_tongue:

#112

I don’t understand this scaling discussion, because the SP mode is easy once you reach your learning curve’s plateau. And regarding HW2 standards, I’m an average player.

HW2 scaling is right and makes perfect sense. This is a RTS and projecting/deploying the right size of your force is part of the strategy intelligence the devs and real RTS players want to nurture. The opposition will always challenge you. If you want a large scale battle, you’re rewarded. If you want to cheat, you get a lesson. I don’t see any problem with scaling. If you think of the current procedural generation trend, it’s even modern.

Campaign scaling