[UPDATED][POLL] Balancing Direction

I think the HW community can be basically split into two camps: those who want a refinement of the current balance direction, such as InnoCiv, and those who want the current HW2 derived balance and numbers torn down and rebuilt completely to be very much similar to HW1 in pacing and feel. Before anyone can move on in fixing the balance which camp is larger absolutely needs to be resolved. I and many others on the forum strongly believe that the current numbers need to be torn down and replaced anew with Homeworld DPS values and no nonsensical armour system; frigates should take center stage and battles should take time to be over; a battlecruiser should be most useful as an HP sink and not as an overpowered thing of doom. We regard the current values as nearly heretical to the goodness that was Homeworld and feel more strongly opposed about this than, we believe, the most ardent HW2 fan would about importing HW1 DPS values onto HW2 vessels. In order to determine if this is the case, I have created a series of polls that I would appreciate votes on.

http://strawpoll.me/3898032
http://strawpoll.me/3898046/
http://strawpoll.me/3898059/

3/19/15 New poll
http://strawpoll.me/3912485/

Analysis and some other stuff:

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It’s worth noting that it’s very possible to preserve HW2’s stats and feel for HW2R campaign while still overhauling the multiplayer balance.

I’m not sure we can discuss this until we know if the support system can/will improve. The effectiveness of support frigates could make HW1 frigates near invencible if we could stack beams and instantly switch what the are repairing the way we could in HW1. They can already stand up to destroyers if micro’d properly.

If what we have is all we’re going to get, then we’ll probably need to discuss both the class jumps in HP and DMG along with the upgrades. But at that point (knowing for sure that the REAL backbone of any HW1 fleet is useless) most of the HW1 players are probably going to quit playing anyway.

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This is absolutely the wrong way of going about this. The forum population is in no way indicative of the community at large, no forum population ever is or will be. You will only get a number that means nothing or at worse will negatively impact the game experience for the vast majority of people not on these forums. Balance needs to be done with regards to what is good for the game, not what the vocal minority on a forum wants.

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I’m trying reconcile myself to the notion that HW1 mechanics and play style aren’t going to happen. However, if that’s true I’ll probably move on sooner than otherwise.

I moved on from the original when HWC (a game with similar mechanics) came out. I moved on from HW2 when I lost interest.

Going back and watching video clips of HWR development, it’s pretty clear that graphics were king (and that part is darn impressive). I wish similar attention had been paid to importing HW1 mechanics into the game engine, but I suspect it’s too late for that.

At this point I’m wondering if it’s time to abandon any pretense of the HW1 portion playing like the original and bringing all HW2 style tools to bear on balancing the game. This is not the option I would favor, but it maybe the best practical and attainable alternative left. Of course, that could screw up SP.

I hope people can realize this is a poor way of determining how balancing should be approached (especially devs).

I say this not because I disagree with the ‘current majority’, but that by nature of forums themselves this result will be biased. Video game forums are not typically places where people go to praise the games many successes, its usually an outlet for frustration.

And in this instance, the frustrated party are the ones that want to push the game more towards Homeworld 1 mechanics (and looking at the results of the survey the attitude of ‘quitting this game if I don’t see my changes occur’ pretty much proves my point).

Please don’t misconstrue these words to mean that the discussions that take place on this forum are largely caustic, the community here is by and large rather level headed and has highlighted a lot of issues with the game.
But the mindset for balancing based on the currently existing ‘heretical’ system obviously has a few folks worked up.

The information is useful in determining how the --HW forum community-- views the issue, but definitely not the HW community in its entirety.

A poll from users that launch the MP Beta application would offer a much better answer, but I think still that should still wait until after bug fixes and obviously broken unit behaviors are fixed.

The vocal minority of a game is typically the vocal majority of users on forums :smile:

You could almost craft a valid argument to do the complete opposite of whatever the poll suggests, but I think it is a good way of gauging the attitude of this small community.

Yes and no I didn’t participate in the poll, by the way, because I don’t think forum polls aren’t very good at providing insight. Good polls take a lot of research and effort to get right such that the results are meaningful.

Having said all that…

I agree that forum users tend to be the vocal minority and not necessarily reflective of the majority. I, also, agree that the good of the game should be weighed against public opinion.

But, there is something about a vocal minority that tends to be significant - they tend to take action. The passionate ones will stick around sometimes for years - if you give them what they want. The less vocal ones will generally eventually move on. It’s a difficult balancing act (no pun intended) to please the fanatics without alienating the more non-vocal majority. But keeping the fanatics is important for the life of the game. It’s also often (but, of course not always) the case that the fanatics have a deeper understanding of the game as well.

I think it’s made more difficult with HWR because of the differences between HW1 and HW2 and trying to integrate them. You have the possibility of 2 sets of fanatics whose interests may be in competion with each other.

And here I am, thinking that HW2 races are near perfect (they just need a little polishing) and HW1 races need to be tailored to fit with them.

I think this is the more constructive ‘way to go’ since the game engine IS HW2!

And a majority of HW1’s gameplay can easily be created in HW2’s engine. Your point?

Maybe the majority of HW1’s gameplay has been created in the HWR (HW2) engine, but crucial aspects such as formations, support frigates, etc. have not. Since that wasn’t done, I have to question whether it’s easy.

They managed a lot in less than a month, I’d be up for seeing what the modders can do in say, 3. The biggest problem they had with modding HW2 Classic for ballistic (using the missile weapon code) was a sever hit to performance. So far it sounds like there has been a much smaller hit with the new engine. There is a lot of potential.

Regarding the ‘MP is dying stuff’, HW1 players have had HW1 mp classic available and ways to play it for 16 years, why would that community all of a sudden die less than a month into HWR? Besides I never liked how broken support frigs/corvs were. If a mechanic forces you to use it regardless of what tactic you want to go then it’s broken. What’s the difference between being forced to use support frigs and being forced to use BCs?

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The existing classic community won’t suddenly die out. The problem is that a lot of people who played classic no longer have functional discs (if at all) in order to play the game - they aren’t part of the existing classic community, they couldn’t be even if they wanted to. The release of HWR is an opportunity to tap into that community, but if the original gameplay aspects that are currently missing aren’t restored, I think that opportunity will disappear.

I agree, Gearbox has accomplished a lot. HWR is more stable than HW2 ever was, for me at least and thus far, a lot of HW1 gameplay mechanics are still intact, but it still plays like a partial mod. A HW1 deathmatch in HWR would only bear a passing resemblance to the original.

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I couldn’t vote because there was no option.

I think the game should be HW2.5. Nothing from either game should be sacred. It should be new balancing that brings the best of the two games together.

HW1 Deathmatch should use as close as possible to HW1 stats on ships.
HW2 Deathmatch should use the current HW2 stats.
HWRM should be roughly a complete rebalance that is 70-80% like HW2, but with tactics, formations, and a few necessary design changes.

How about “i just want it balanced” i understand the transition from the hw1 engine to the hw2 engine so i’m fine with it.

But they needed to do more than copy/pasting hw2 stats on hw1 ships.

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The thing is that most of the hw1 community came and bought the HWR for everything what HW1 was about. Now I am part of this group. I have feared about mixing those 2 games into one and unfortunately all my fears are now a reality.

One thing is clear. Combining those 2 games, HW1 and HW2 was the worst possible idea. It is like having a lover and wife at the same time and trying to please both at the same time without neglecting either of them. This will not come to pass. No matter how hard you try. Now the question is why.

Balancing both races, from both games, using both characteristics is nearly impossible. GB has not tested it enough even before releasing the game. HW1 players want their part to be like it used to be in 1999 and HW2 players fear that if this comes to pass, their races will be completely obsolete.

Imagine this. You can see a wall of 40 HW1 vetts with 6 support frigs and 70 bombers used in sphere formation engaging frigate/destroyer HW2 fleet. HW2 doesn’t stand a chance. Also if getting 10 support frigs to aid 3 bcs, this will be a major disadvantage for the HW2 races. Balancing those 2 will be NEARLY impossible.

We are not paying any subscriptions and majority of players is not playing on MP cause of veterans who already knew most of the mechanics and are for them “unbeatable” therefore not worth playing. It is not financially wise to invest such a tremendous time and efforts in balancing MP for only few hundred of players with over 200k copies sold.

What I think will be done? “Balancing” both races with the lowest effort possible and cost. Either that or perhaps making 2 seperates modes of gameplay for both races and implementing changes so that both can be satisfied, yet seperate.

Since even the last option is highly unlikely I will just abandon my dreams of the past and will move on returning to EVE Online. It’s been fun and worth the cash, but this is not what I expected of HWR.

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I absolutely agree with this position.

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Salute! Good to see PSA is still out there.

I’ll give it a patch or two to see how things are panning out, but I think you’re right. It’s not likely that the game will develop in a direction like I’d hoped. If that’s the case, I’ll just move on to something else.

I definitely agree with this. HW1RM campaign should use HW1C style design and balance. HW2RM campaign should use HW2C style design and balance. HWRM multiplayer shouldn’t be shackled to either. Personally I’d prefer much more HW1 style, but in this context neither should be sacred.

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