#153

The game hasn’t changed substantively for you, because you’re effectively “all in” on URad. Other players might not be, and now when evaluating build decisions, there are arguably more choices.

To take another example, I’m all in on my Barrier / Drone Zane. I have been since release, through all the ups and downs (though, uh, given the green tree, mostly downs :stuck_out_tongue:). Gearbox haven’t changed my build all too much (though Cold Bore is now fantastic, which is fine). That doesn’t mean the changes Gearbox have done are therefore worthless.

There’s a difference between “this has made no impact on me” and “this has made no impact on every single person who plays the game”. In my opinion, this needs to be recognised more.

3 Likes
#154

I think the point is obvious. If they left the anointments as is, our builds would be more OP. The additional skill points needed a trade off considering mayhem scaling on certain skills/interactions/etc…

3 Likes
#155

That’s a fair point. I’m stuck in my own skin (as we all are) and tend to make the mistake of assuming my experience is similar to that of others. Maybe Urad (and CH) would have been too powerful at level 72 and the reduction of the anoint is compensated by more skill points. I get that and said the same thing in one of my posts above.

The issue is that this is not the reason GBX said they were changing the anoint. The stated reason for changing the anoint was that they wanted the character-specific anointments to be meta. Direct from Noelle’s hotfix/patch notes:

“We have found that a few character-agnostic Anointments were proving to be the go-to for all characters and builds. With the changes we are making today, we’re hoping to see character-specific Anointments become meta, rewarding players for building into their character tree and Action Skills even more so than before.”

So not only did GBX fail to change the meta as far as I can tell (I mean, I see some builds using the character-specific anoints; I certainly wouldn’t call them “meta” but I could be wrong about that), but I am not 100% convinced they really changed the balance in any material way. My point was, why make a change we can’t really feel?

You don’t know that - this is an assumption. We never got to play a version of the game where we got more skill points and also kept the general anointments as they were previously. I seriously doubt I would have been able to tell a big difference if Urad went back to 150%. Which is my point overall.

For the record, I voted above to keep Urad as it is right now at 100%. Because I don’t think it matters either way. I am just trying to flesh out the logic here - and I don’t see a whole lot of logic happening with these changes to the general anointments because they are still the meta.

3 Likes
#156

But they may be (more) meta now, is the point. You’re choosing to stick with URad for various (valid!) reasons. Without the nerf (and obviously without a few of the buffs), the character-specific Anoints might not have been competitive.

I don’t think they haven’t gone far enough personally, but I appreciate the shakeup.

To your edit, again, it’s difficult to say what we can “feel” at this stage. But to me (and this is in no way criticism of you - it’s entirely fair you feel the way you do about these changes), it feels like Gearbox can’t win (in this and other areas, hah :sweat_smile:).

If they change too much, they get criticised for changing things (though they get that nomatter how mild the changes are, heh), but if they don’t change things enough, they get people asking what the point is.

See the thing here is I don’t think anybody is wrong to feel the way they do. Playing games is an incredibly subjective experience a lot of the time and there are always going to be people that don’t want their favourite thing changed (nerfed or otherwise - see the changes to Zane’s green tree), there are always going to be people who think the devs didn’t go far enough, and so on.

I will say I’m happy personally with the Barrier Anoint having it’s critical damage amped up considerably. It used to be a go-to of mine back in the day, and slapping a ton more crit on top (for me, as a player, I always prefer crit-heavy gameplay / builds - it’s why I’ve always preferred Jakobs, through all the BL games) is definitely going to help. But likewise, the SNTL fire rate buff is . . . meh. But then again, the entire Anoint is. So number buffs won’t help much there - especially against URad, N2M, or whatever the existing meta is (or was).

And as a finisher, in my opinion, these things take months to settle within a playerbase. Whether it’s “I like using what I’m already using” or “this character is a dedicated URad / Cryo / whatever-based build”, change takes a while to emerge. And hopefully there’ll be more tuning in the future. I personally wouldn’t want URad to go lower myself, but taking its top-end away while buffing other Anoints is a good route to go. I’d like to see them build on that approach.

2 Likes
#157

@Gorbles All fair points. I am not trying to be unreasonable here - I honestly really don’t care personally about any of the changes to the anoints.

I just don’t feel the changes. Maybe other people are feeling this more in their builds or something. I just feel like if they wanted to change the actual meta of the game, they could have done that by actually balancing the game. I know, novel concept. If they had reduced the anointment values much more drastically and knocked back enemy health to a number factor that did not have 5 zeroes behind it, they might be able to achieve this.

As it is, it just feels to me like they changed some anointment numbers around, but didn’t really affect the meta at all (even though that was the stated goal). But again, just my personal opinion.

2 Likes
#158

I get you. My perspective is definitely rooted in working with what we’ve got vs. what we don’t have, and what we don’t have is a significant budget (and / or scope) for balance (or even design) changes at this stage in the game.

So, assuming Mayhem modifiers and level scaling can’t be changed too much, assuming most Anointments are here to stay, assuming the current power scaling is intended and what they’re going to be leaving the game with . . . I think they’re reasonable changes. And even then, within this very specific scope, I can appreciate others will disagree. Others can and will list low-effort changes that might have a better impact on the game overall. But in my experience these tend to change the direction of changes made, and Gearbox are obviously (with whatever limited resources they have for this work) working to a specific vision.

I appreciate others want more, and I think that’s completely fair.

2 Likes
#159

I think that is 100% what’s going on here. Limited resources, limited time, limited ability to effect real change. To me, the really sad thing is that I feel like whatever “vision” GBX has, is full of major, major compromises. I feel certain it’s that way with every game, but as fan of this particular game (BL3), it’s tough to see all of the unrealized potential (or what feels to me to be unrealized potential) and not think of what I feel like should have been.

2 Likes
#160

Okay limited resources, but enough resources to start making a new game and a movie? Actually, most likely 2 new games (bl4) and TTWL, and a movie.

Like, I feel like that’s a lot of resources they’re using for those other endeavors. I don’t know why we have to defend gearbox like it doesn’t have a butt ton of money and resources.

1 Like
#161

Who’s defending them? Did I miss that post? GBX stans are in short supply here as far as I can tell.

EDIT: And for the record, I think that if GBX put money into the things it should have instead of other failed projects, BL3 would have been a better game. From the outside, it looks like GBX has been playing shell games with money between projects ever since BL1. There are entire articles and Youtube videos speculating about the robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul they did with BL1, Aliens, Battleborn, and now it looks like that also might have happened with BL3 (let’s be honest, the game is still only about 85% baked, 2 years post-release). I have no idea what has actually gone on behind the scenes, but this seems like a reasonable theory to me. If you don’t think there is any truth to this concept, ask Sega how they feel about the Aliens game.

1 Like
#162

Per project is what I meant. Games development is a for-profit enterprise (for better or worse). This means that over time the budget you can allocate to a title lessens and you need to invest in something new to bring a return.

The exception to this is of course live service games, but BL3 isn’t DotA 2, or Warframe, etc.

#163

Now that the dust has settled I can say I still disagree with the decision to change URad but that is the opinion of one player. Since my opinion is worth about the same as that random raindrop I have to accept my options are as following:

1.) Quit playing / reduce playtime
2.) Keep rolling with my URad build
3.) Adapt and overcome
4.) A combination of the above.

I went with option 4. I will not change my Jakobs Fl4k build. For Moze I ditched the deathless build for Iron Bear rail cannons of Doom. Zane and Amara remain unchanged as I never used URAD on them personally.

#164

They aren’t though. I don’t mean to be a stick in the mud here, but we’re talking about the meta and not general viability.

I’m not going to say that streamers dictate the meta, but you can tell a lot of how the meta currently is by looking at streamer and YTer builds. None of them have changed anointments. With the exception of Phaseslam builds which finally got their non-functioning damage anoint fixed AND buffed, no other action skill runs it’s specific anoint over URad. Consec was used because it works independently of action skills, making it deal less damage doesn’t change the fact that it still deals it’s damage without needing to have a skill up. Splash is still just as dumb, and considering URad and 300/90 were the only anoints that competed with splash on weapon that deal splash, and both were nerfed as well, nothing changed. Finally, 300/90 is still the largest single shot damage boost in the game and still double dips in a bunch of things.

If GBX stated goal wasn’t to shift the meta, there would be room for debate. But based on what they said they wanted to accomplish, they failed. The general anoints are used precisely because they are general. Tying damage to specific periods of action skill use is not as effective as having more universal damage.

If GBX wanted shake up the meta, they needed to make more informed anointment buffs:

  • Increase the stack timer on the kill anoint so you can actually use it in normal mobbing scenarios
  • Fix and buff Rakkslag anoint instead of rakkcrit for FL4K
  • Make gravity snare actually usefulso that players want to use it instead of just slapping a huge damage anoint on an otherwise worthless skill
  • 1% of lifesteal is more than enough healing. If the goal is to shake up the meta, what does buffing a 30% lifesteal to 50% accomplish? If it wasn’t used before it still won’t be now.
  • Bring back Airborn and Slide anoints. Seriously, those are fully multiplicative with all other gun damage so they are actually pretty insane. Those are actually a meta choice for a fair number of builds now post nerf. You can offline farm them, but just add them back into the pool and consolidate or remove some of the more useless anoints (for example, why do have several anoints that give only marginally more weapon damage than 100ASA for specific action skills only?)

If their goal is to shift the meta, they can’t just mess with numbers and expect to achieve their goal. QOL is a major determinant of what becomes the most effective at the highest levels of the game. No matter how much they try to shift damage around, if they don’t address basic usability issues then all of it will be for nothing.

6 Likes
#165

Going to go all in on the meta of this meta (sorry).

What is the “meta”? Is it the strategies popularised by streamers and YouTubers? Is it the min-maxed best-output builds that exist in the game? Or is it simply a prevalence of choice whereby you’re less penalised for building the character the way you want to?

I’m asking seriously because I’ve played games at all levels of competitiveness. I’ve played multiplayer RTS, MOBAs, FPS games (it’s all been downhill since Quake for me in that genre, mind you), with varying degrees of competence. In these games, the “meta” is defined by PvP viability. We don’t really have that here.

I’m not trying for a gotcha, I’m not trying to “win” the argument by semantics. I’m trying to understand what you mean as “meta”, because in my opinion it could be far too a-narrow a definition.

The range of build choices we have in this game (the bad and the good), changing the meta as defined as high-end min-maxed gameplay is very difficult because it involves scaling a lot of things up, massively. Gearbox works off of accumulated metrics (and reading forums / watching streams, absolutely). The challenge in obtaining this data is much more difficult compared to getting analytics from a bunch of competitive RTS matches (for example). Making more things viable does influence the “meta”, insofar as we’re trying to shift from “you have to pick this Anoint or everything sucks” to “you can pick a bunch of things and a lot of them are viable”.

To be clear, I don’t think we’re at the latter yet. I’m not saying we’ve arrived. But these changes are a good step in that direction (for the game that we have, assuming no major changes).

#166

Yes. That would seem to be what GBX envisions it to mean as well, since all of the highest damage builds in the game utilized the anoints that were nerfed. You can use 100 melee ASE, 150 nade ASA, and other (still plenty powerful) anoints within the context of certain builds to extremely lethal effectiveness, but the highest damage output in the game for each character was often using the 4 anoints that were nerfed.

Only if the things being buffed are at their core competitive with the anoints that were nerfed and just needed a bit of a boost. That isn’t the case.

For example, Rakkslag is a 100% gun only V2 bonus against any enemy hit by a Rakk. With 300/90 being brought down to 150/90, that anoint would actually be competitive for certain setups because you don’t have to deal with a health threshold to activate it. It has usability that makes it more desirable in certain cases than it’s competition.

None of the other anoints (that are still dropping online) have that. The kill skill anoint needs an unrealistically high amount of mob density only found in 3 or 4 areas of the game to get it’s bonus up enough to equal CH. N2M needs an action skill that is spammable, a gun or build that can sustain a mag, and only applies to the gun itself whereas URad works regardless of action skill availability, build, or even damage source. And no gun damage anoint comes anywhere close to beating it on any char except Moze and maybe Amara sometimes.

At the end of the day, the anoints that are used in the meta are used because other options don’t provide unique use cases that are worth making any trade-offs for. There is no reason to use any ASA gun damage anoint because CH deals close to the same damage, but all of the time instead of only while an action skill is active. Aside from Moze, most of the other chars get more action skill damage out of URad than the class specific anoint, and the anoints only buff the damage of the action skill while URad applies to everything. Nothing in the game fills the same niche as 150/90 or splash.

Until GBX addresses this by changing the activation requirements of most anointments so that they aren’t just side (down)-grades of existing general purpose anoints, the situation won’t change. There is no reason to take a damage bonus that is more conditional AND doesn’t offer any particular advantage.

3 Likes
#167

I like and appreciate your Anointment breakdown (basically know that I read it, and didn’t skip it), but this bit here is a bit of an assumption. I’m not saying that it’s automatically wrong, but bear with me here.

Gearbox could’ve nerfed the best-performing Anoints to narrow the gap between them and other, nearly-competitive Anoints. For the aim of increasing general viability (as I think you and I both agree there’s still a general surplus of damage available for any character for any Mayhem level and boss in the game, with the right gear and build).

To expand on “no reason to pick a lesser / more inconvenient Anointment”, this actually benefits my argument (general viability). I believe Gearbox are trying to cater to as many players as possible. I could be wrong. But that’s my stance. With these changes, ASA is at least more comparable to CH. I completely agree with your evaluation of the Anoints mentioned, by the way.

But we have the reroll machine, right? 250 Eridium a pop. Not a huge problem with anyone with a dedicated amount of time to farm the Ruiner, or whatever. But there are enough threads on the cost (as well as the general Eridium sink for high-end content like Hemovorous) for me to point out some players find it excessive. Less engaged players might find it prohibitive. These players still deserve to have weapons and Anointments that make them feel powerful on whatever level of Mayhem they happen to try out.

A good argument against my take here is the SNTL fire rate Anoint was buffed. There’s no way that Anoint can ever work, unless you want to pick the blue tree and flat-out ignore two Kill Skills on your way to the capstone :sweat_smile:

Maybe it was just “bigger numbers make more players happy”. I’m not saying folks like yourself, or other longtime dedicated players will be happy with that. However, in that case it definitely backs up my stance on Gearbox’s balancing, and who they’re balancing for with the “meta”.

1 Like
#168

In that case, why then even mention “shaking up the meta” if the intention of the patch was to improve general viability of more anoints? What you are proposing their goal was vs what they said it was are drastically different: one of them is focused on shifting the endgame power structure and is aimed at veteran players, the other is a general power increase across all levels of the game where said power increase often isn’t needed or noticeable. You can get away with so much, even in M10. Unless you are doing the Takedowns, maybe some of the trials, and Seer, most of the game can be cleared with a variety of anointments and strategies. Buffing the kill skill anoint may make it feel a bit better to use, but it still has all of the same issues, and it’s not as if the power spike is so much that a player using it would be able to do things that were out of reach before.

My theory is that GBX didn’t actually intend for the buffed anoints to compete, but mainly wanted to nerf the strongest ones to bring down the ceiling of player power. We can see that over the past few months with the nerfs to groundbreaker, fishslap, facepuncher, short fuse, passing action skill damage through TTB, indiscriminate, and remnant spawning changes, that GBX are making efforts to lower the ceiling for the massive amounts of damage players are capable of hitting with min-maxed builds. Of course, none of these changes have made a lasting impact because GBX has introduced more powercreep gear in DLC 6 and we have 7 more skill points now, but my guess is that this is a similar gesture to at least attempt to do something.

3 Likes
#169

We have all had a nice discussion throughout this thread. I don’t intend to be the “thread-closer,” just wanted to say that intelligent debate is enjoyable.

@boombumr Regarding the above quote, I gotta be honest - I don’t think there is very much intentionality to what is going on right now. I think they are trying to see what will stick in order to prep for Wonderlands and BL4. I am not so sure how much the devs actually care about BL3 at this point. I think they did at some point, just not really now. But I do understand what @Gorbles is saying with the whole, “they’re trying and some stuff kinda worked” thought process. I am just not sure that this is actually correct. I think it’s more likely that it’s not correct, but will acknowledge that it could be.

Unless the devs are gonna wholesale revamp/redesign the game, fix skills, fix anoints, and fix balance, I kinda think it’s time they just left the game alone. Because whatever they are trying, is not working IMO. Like at all.

If the devs wanna change the game, they should change the friggin’ game in a meaningful way - stop the half-measures. Half measures are for people who don’t have, or can’t actually commit to, the vision. Either make actual, meaningful changes to the game, or don’t. But don’t half-ass it. That’s what it feels like to me is happening at this point - a half-assed effort.

4 Likes
#170

Gain 300% increased Weapon Damage against enemies above 90% Health
Lowered to 150% increased Weapon Damage
・This was removed from the meta in a previous update.
If it’s 150%, it’s not worth using.
Should be put back immediately.

While under 50% health, deal 150% bonus radiation damage.
Lowered to 100% bonus damage.
・I think the nerf is appropriate because the effect was on more than just guns.
I’d say 125% is best for me, considering the disadvantages.

Consecutive Hits increase Weapon Damage by 1% per hit, misses remove all bonuses
Limited the amount of times this could stack to 100
・Stacking up to 200% was difficult, and you had to pick your gun.
This anoint is worthless now that it is the same as ASE100.
It should be changed back immediately.

On Action Skill End, Splash Damage is increased by 200% for a short time
Lowered to 125%.
・Like URad, the effect was on more than just guns, so the nerf is appropriate.
It should have been 100%.

While an Action Skill is Active, Weapon Damage is increased by 200
Lowered to 100
・The nerf was appropriate since it has become more useful with past updates.

It’s clear to me that borderlands 3 didn’t need the Anoint.
Let’s go back to Omega.

#171

How? Please provide an explanation because there is not a single instance where you were using 300/90 before that you aren’t using 150/90 now.

No it wasn’t, literally any source of damage coming from your char stacked this. You could easily get 200 stacks in 5 seconds.

So you have 100ASE that isn’t tied to ASE. Sounds pretty worthwhile to me. When was the last time anyone used 100ASE again, M4? Meanwhile consec is still the most recommended gun damage anoint even post nerf.

Redux mod exists if you want that, but I’d rather GBX work on improving the system they have than scrapping the whole thing.

#172

No it wasn’t, literally any source of damage coming from your char stacked this. You could easily get 200 stacks in 5 seconds.

In order to accumulate 200 hits, you need to be properly equipped and prepared.
You can’t use it if you spend 5 seconds on a special setting.
And with other builds, if you have 5 seconds, the enemy doesn’t exist in the world.
Let’s talk about top builds, not low level builds.