Vay upgrading entire class for HW1

Sorry if this was discussed in middle of somewhere.

Since Vaygr upgrades are done to an entire class, in classic HW2, for example passing a Hig scout to a Vaygr player and Vaygr upgrades fighter speed to level 1 and that Hig scout also gets an upgrade and get level 2 and it gets upgraded again and lasts even if the scout is passed back to the original owner.

Now in HWR this also works for passing HW1 ships to Vaygr.

Is this intended? This will mean that every HW1 player with a Vaygr player in team will want to pass everything they have (except for capital ships that cannot be passed) to upgrade them, which means every Vaygr upgrade is worth doing as early as possible even if it means getting RU donated from HW1 players.

But honestly this should not be the way played as this just does not happen in 1v1 or team games where Vaygr is not present in your team.

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Definitely sounds like unintended metagaming which needs to be patched. While it certainly is nice to have interesting cross-race team synergy and mechanics, this would be far too overpowered in team games to keep especially when it stacks with Hiigaran ship’s own upgrades - a Hiigaran Battlecruiser with 528,000 HP and more than 110 movement speed? No thanks.

I imagine the problem is a result of two things:

  • As a quick programming shortcut for Vaygr armor/speed upgrades, specifying the entire class to be upgraded was easier than specifying every Vaygr ship.
  • Ships getting instant upgrades when allegiance changes was probably implemented in HW:R to account for the case when a Vaygr player captures or recaptures enemy Vaygr ships after the upgrades have been done.

Team upgrades do not stack, they never did.

And teammates upgrading ships was a viable technique back in HW2, it promotes some cool strats. Problem in HWR is that HW1 ships do not have their own upgrades, so this is now an issue. Simply prevent upgrades from being applied to HW1 ships.

Actually preventing HW1 still makes it a issue for say, Hig / Vay vs Hig / Hig, when Vay team can just keep getting upgrades by passing all Hig ships to Vay and Hig doesn’t need those upgrades but is not the biggest issue when BC is not transferrable anymore.

Can’t Hiig still upgrade Vaygr ships? If not, that needs to come back.

Hiig could never upgrade Vaygr ships, only the other way around.

I would like to see this fixed too. For 2v2, Vaygr + HW1 is way stronger than Hiig + HW1 since Vaygr can upgrade the hw1 ships.

Swapping ships between allies and back should never net an advantage in upgrades, what kind of sense does that even make? That is like the multi research bug in HW:C, just because it is there doesn’t mean it is supposed to be. This should be completely removed, everyone needs to research their OWN upgrades. This is so an exploit on sooo many levels.

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Well, I guess I’m talking fighters, destroyers, and now irrelevant BCs. We didn’t really use any other team upgrades.

And teammates upgrading your ships is not really an exploit. It a very efficient team tactic, which adds depth to strategies when it comes to skilled team matches. Removing it simplifies 2v2 and 3v3 matches and removes some of the very advanced builds that require coordinated teamwork.

I like more complexity, because it makes the game more interesting and allows for longer game exploration. Maybe that’s just me…

This comes off as slightly condescending. Plenty of players around who do appreciate more complexity but not in this instance since it is a very efficient mechanic intrinsic to one race.

Removing it helps to level the playing field in 2v2 and 3v3 games so that matchups aren’t skewed towards Vaygr being a necessity in any team composition.

Not at all, merely stating facts.

In HW2 both sides can benefit from this mechanic. I did say that HWR requires changes to get it balanced.

Again, I did point out that HWR should be fixed.

Correct me If I’m wrong, but even if you reverted the changes back to HW2, the fact remains that you can potentially get multiple Hiigaran/Vaygr players free upgrades (except the upgrader) at the cost of the seconds of inconvenience it takes to transfer the ships to and from players. It certainly is cool from a metagaming perspective but it is not balanced - even more so with your proposal to shut out HW1 races from being able to benefit.

Yap this should get completely removed. Eighter that or the opposite by enhancing upon that and adding new related research trees etc. where both races benefit of the tech of the other race… Soase has something like that…

Yes, because there’s currently no way to share tech between HW1 races, a HW2 team would benefit from something HW1 team cannot.

Removing it is the easiest way, but it’s also a sad way to go. I think that first the devs need to figure out how they’re going to balance HW2 upgrade system against HW1. After that they can decide on the HW2 tech share.

There’s also one more issue that benefits a HW2+HW1 race setup, and it is actually superior to the the HW2+HW2 tech share. It has to do with the ship type cap being calculated differently between HW2 and HW1 for some ships.

Ship and tech sharing has been giving classic HW2 a much deeper strategies while making those players who know about it a bit way too strong than average players.

1 guy could keep pumping shipyard and pass it along the team and this was the worst way to get lots of BC way faster than doing default setup but ship sharing also allowed quick hyper torp and hyper cap which was an acceptable strategy which didn’t usually overpower the other side too much, same goes for double dd by swapping cc and ms with another player.

Those really made it interesting for us to come up with new strategies and created moves that looked crazy such as passing Vaygr res mod to Hig to do some 3:30 hyper torp and others but it’s a hard issue to balance it well, as even the top players stopped doing shipyard sharing as it just made the game on how fast you could make so many BC and limited how games can be played.

Right now as production ships are not allowed to be passed and only RU can be donated and those old strategies are gone but I do miss some of them but simply re-allowing could potentially make games about “who does more agrresive advanced strategies” which probably is not the best way to play games.

In short, I like some of the deeper strategies but some are just overpowered, and not sure how much benefit ship/RU sharing should give advantage to the team without limiting too many strategies.

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Tech sharing was superior in every way in HW2, so it’s obvious that it included some of the best strats possible in team games. The reason I liked them was because we could play normally against a team that did not want to share tech, or we could see which teamwork is better vs teams that also used tech sharing. It added more possibilities and more ways to test your skill in team games long after all normal builds were mastered by players who stuck around.

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Do you have any official postings to refer to that prove tech sharing was an intended “feature”? If not, if there is nothing that can be shown that proves the sharing was specifically designed the way it worked, it would qualify as an exploit.

I may be wrong here but I was under the impression exploits were considered bad. So how about it, can you produce evidence that the sharing was designed in? I don’t think it was but I wait for your evidence.

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Tech upgrade sharing (armor/engine upgrades) should definitely be kept as a strategy for players of the same race at least. As others have said, this was a feature present in HW2 and it makes sense that races of the same type have compatible technologies. If HW1 races could also be given the same kind of capabilities I think it would be the best way to go about evening out any perceived imbalances.

I don’t think there were any posts from the devs stating that tech share was an exploit.

In either case, it added complexity and depth, and I (personally) think it was beneficial to the game.

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Let me make sure I am understanding your comments. Are you saying A) if you transfer a ship any upgrades you researched should stay with the ship, or B) when transferring a ship with an upgrade the receiving party has not researched, they should now get that upgrade research for free on all ships?