Vaygr corvettes

I’d like to redact my previous statement on how HW2 races are perfectly balanced. You can’t produce a reasonable counter to vaygr corvettes. If you can give me one reasonable counter (taking into consideration the time to build said unit composition and the time it takes to scout for the vaygr corvette rush), I’ll be very amused.

By reasonable I also mean that you shouldn’t be too vulnerable to anything else the vaygr guy throws at you. The counter must be done by the time the guy starts transitioning away from corvettes. Let’s disregard gravity wells.

Going mass missilers (perhaps throwing in like 3-4 lasers) gives you uncontested air superiority without regard to map size. I had a game where the opponent’s economy was practically nonexistent, and i kept pumping out pulsars but still lost to the swarm (having lost 14 interceptor squads beforehand against said swarm, then switching to pulsars).

I couldn’t even 1v1 a single missiler unit (lvl 2 everything) sent to my resource patch with a lvl1 pulsar supported by a carrier and a mobile refinery.

Mass torp frigs?

Tested, not working. Even more so because of how mobile corvettes are. If i had like 25 torpedoes, he could just go around them to kill my economy.

Lasers shred torpedoes pretty bad also. (The initial volley from a single laser squad kills a torpedo frig.)

For Hiigaran, Torp frigate.
For Vaygr, Lance Fighters
For Kushan/Taiidan Grav Well

And yes vaygr missile corvettes are a bastard to deal with -.-. They are good vs most fighters, corvettes and frigates. All in one little cure package of death.

See above. Gravwells are good, but those are also broken.

Currently missile vettes are somehow wrongly over powered compared to how they were in HW2 and now they also slice cols like butter. Pulsars are supposed to kill them just fine.

Usually Grav+Torp/EMP/Pulsars/Lances/Hig ints.

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Defense fighters and interceptors do a reasonable job. Out of curiosity, what do you think is broken about gravwells?

Yeah I’ve tried the mass torp frigates and it doesn’t seem to work. Not vs pulsars either

Basically what REALLY happens is that pulsars will kill a bunch of torps, retreating their pulsars after 1 or 2 in a squad are destroyed(even preemptively retreating them just when missiles are flying AT them), and then they get replenished for cheap/free.

So then the torps have lost like 3k RU worth of units while the corvs lost less than half that. Then they come back again with even more pulsars while you’re still replacing the higher losses of pulsars. Rinse and repeat until lose.

It only works when you’re at like 3 torp frigs vs 4 pulsar squads. In which case the 3 can take out a squad while 4 pulsars aren’t enough to gib the frigates.

You could definitely micro the torps a bit better to make sure you have 3 each on a squadron, but… still it seems rather imbalanced with the huge mobility advantage pulsars have, and resupply advantage, on top of how they don’t really have a hiig counter besides more pulsars.

In HW2, I think pulsars went even with missile corvs, and torps beat them.

Well I take that back, the one counter that isn’t more pulsars is EMP.

I think bombers are better vs corvs than interceptors, but still not that good.

And I think grav wells have much too much range, allowing you to hide them far behind your fleet. I don’t really think they should disable attacks either, at least not on energy weapons, and should like slow missiles down or something.
Maybe shouldn’t even completely freeze strike craft, but instead just lower their speed and maneuverability by 75%.

Hi Innociv! Could you give some numbers on this? I’ve faced the missile corvette horde with torp frigates and have won…same versus pulsars.

I think he is saying they are OP.

Okay, if I understand, ynvaser doesn’t accept Hiig Torp Frigates because the Corvettes can go around them…well, the Hiig Torps can be hyperspaced to enemy locations = they can both go around each other, but the Hiigs can get there much faster with a hyperspace assist…but with a much greater RU cost for jumping.

Vagyr can use Lancer Fighters to counter them

Defenders and Drone Frigates are okay for the HW1 races (if you want to avoid using their super powered Gravity Well Generators).

EMP works well, but requires a lot of micro!

No one (good) hyperspaces frigs just to kill vettes.

Theres currently a bug with Missilecorvs. They are dealing double damage right now. Should be fixed in an upcomming patch.

Unfortunately in the meantime that means 12 missile corvs currently kill 12 pulsar corvs, only taking 3 losses… Once its patched they should be on par again.

How did you read that into what I said??? Try reading my post this time!

Ynvaser made a comment that Hiig Torps aren’t really counters because the missile corvs can go around the torps. I then made a comment that the Torp frigates can be hyperspaced to enemy locations (they can bypass missile corvs as well…and much faster).

Yes, I get that he meant wells are OP. Just curious as to in what way. I think they need some adjusting also, but not sure how. First, I think they last way to long, or at least their deplete to recharge ratio is not right. You can permalock with just 2 of them. I’m also ok with fighters being able to fire. Theoretically, a gravity field affecting small hull movement shouldn’t effect the guns, unless we make we’ll also effect other projectile and propelled munitions. But remember that locked defenders would also remain pretty effective if they could still shoot given their coverage.

But not sure reducing range is a good move. Remember, these things are our inhibitors also. I keep forgetting to check, but does the range match the HW2 inhibitor?

What would be nice is if distance to the well was a factor in the amount the fighters movement was diminished. That way the inhibitor worked at max range and we could ask for tweaks to how much fighters were effected by % as they get further away from the sounce of the event.

But I’m all for reducing the duration. Those things remain active a ridiculous amount of time. They also build faster then they deplete, meaning even if you increased recharch time I can still just build more to keep you permalocked until I get enough required to rotate them.

Thinking about wells and defenders makes me miss custom formations :wink:

A single unit shouldn’t be able to shut down several thousand RU/minute worth of units for that amount of time. Having two of them just makes everything worse. Their range is ridiculous.

Saying how HW1 units being generally worse make up for it is just wrong. I also don’t think HW1 units are that much worse having played some brilliant players online.

HW1 units are objectively much worse except for the destroyer, HC, ion frig, grav well, defense field, drone, salvage corvs, defender, and (kinda) support frig. Bombers are mediocre, but not as bad as some of the others.
The HW1 players that do very well don’t use over 80% of their available units.

Well missile corvs are doing double damage… They’re supposed to get thoroughly owned by torps but they do pretty good instead.

As far as pulsars vs torps, well if the pulsars actually sit there and both fight to the death, it’s pretty even. But if the corvettes are retreated to resupply they win out.

I’m not sure if pulsars are doing double damage versus frigates or not. I’ve heard a lot say they think they are, but haven’t seen a comparison compared to HW2 to be sure.

So how would you feel about cutting the duration to 1/2 it’s current and tweak recharge time so that 3 are required for permalock? Can’t back the range because inhibitor.

I don’t think resupply is an issue to be honest. Strikecraft and corvettes should be tied to a carrier/battlecruiser for a healthy meta, at least for HW2 races.

For HW1, I came to believe that a supply-chain is the way to go when it comes to strikecraft and corvettes. They are expendable units, build fast and are cheap. The HW1 players starting with 4 production lines just reinforces this in my mind.

Perhaps it should be a gradual effect like someone has already mentioned in one of the topics. The inhibitor range should be the same as gravwell modules, but the stopping effect should be a different story alltogether.

I don’t think gravwells should be too tanky either. Strikecraft with destroyer/torp support should be able to deal with gravwells+assault frigs.

Also, not disabling corvette guns would be a nice touch to the whole effect.

Grav well is the hardest counter unit in the game.

Even if you need 2400 RU of them, well that’s still only the cost of EMP+3 scout squads for something that’s largely better and more reliable.
I think at the very least they should cost 1000 RU and be 30-50% lower range on the grav well effect, though probably longer range on the inhib.

I think they should be weaker but more HP. Inhib subsystems are 100,000+ hp, effectively while grav wells are only 12000…

Figure hyperspace inhibs alone are 1500 RUs. Though they effectively have around 100,000 HP, they just inhib hyperspace and don’t have the strikecraft countering.

I don’t think the grav well inhib should be the same 12000 range as inhibs. It’s a ridiculous amount when you can more easily spread them around and position them tactically than a ship with a subsystem. (Then again, maybe 12000 range is too far on inhib subsystems?)

I’m not saying the mechanic should be removed. Like I said, it could be that pulsars are bugged and doing double damage.
They’re supposed to do what… 155 damage in a 2 shot burst(or is it 3 shot?), every 4 seconds. 60% accuracy to frigs but in practice it seems higher. That’s only 232*0.6 DPS… That’s pretty low. Even if it’s 50% higher if it’s a 3 shot burst, that’s still low. Even if it’s higher than 60% accuracy, heck even if its’ 100% and 3 shot burst, that’s 348.75 dps which is half the DPS that a Laser corv squadron does and doesn’t explain how they rip through frigates. And laser corvs seem to be confirmed for doing double damage.

I don’t think the grav well inhib should be the same 12000 range as inhibs.

It could be made a bit lower. Modules need the range because you probably won’t daisy-chain carriers with inhibs just to stop hyperspace. On the other hand, I could see the aforementioned tactic used with gravwells against Hiigarans.

I think they should be weaker but more HP. Inhib subsystems are 100,000+ hp, effectively while grav wells are only 12000…

Well if they make them behave less like the unit that kills all that is low-tech, then I think it’d be justified to make them tanky.

It could be that pulsars are bugged and doing double damage.

I actually don’t rely too much on pulsars in general, but I haven’t noticed them being that powerful. Lasers are noticeably overpowered vs everything they can hit (a single volley kills a lvl1 torp or so).