Vaygr resourcing

This may be just me but as I was playing around Destroyer builds I noticed that with 18 collectors 4 refineries and MS and carrier both parked next to patches vaygr seems unable to simultaneously support:

1 research
1 destroyer building
1 bc building

4 patches being resourced on crimson bond and vaygr is constantly 0, build slows to a crawl.

Now I am not trying to spam units, but with that many collectors I should be able to support more than three RU outflows. I have no problem pumping 4 builds and a research as Hiig.

Just an observation that may have been reported elswhere (sorry)

I have noticed that Vagyr’s early game resourcing feels less profitable than Hiigaran even though their collectors have the same stats but different models.

The only major factor I can determine that causes this is the convoluted RU dropoff for the mothership. Unlike the Hiigaran MS, the Vagyr’s is a broadside-mounted two-way drive-thru which tends to add unnecessary distance and travel time for the collectors especially since on most maps, initial MS positions have one side facing the starting RU patch.

Since the RU dropoff is like a two-way road with opposing lanes, when two collectors simultaneously come to dock, one of them has to go around the mothership and approach from the other side - collectors are then ejected in the same direction they approached to unload.

In contrast, the Hiigaran mothership has a better economy as its bulk is concentrated vertically which makes it far easier to relocate its RU dropoff closer to the starting patch on the XY plane. In addition, its RU dropoff is a far more convenient latch on/off wall instead of a drive-thru so the “landing” and “takeoff” paths overlap and don’t add unnecessary travel time.

Lastly, all collectors for each race have to move towards a “runway checkpoint” before they automatically proceed to dock and unload - 300 metres for the Hiigaran MS while the Vagyr MS is just over 1000 metres. As a start, this definitely needs to be shortened. Additionally, it would be great if two resource collectors could dock at the dropoff at the same time and from the same direction (left or right).

Screenshot time!

Two collectors coming to dropoff simultaneously at the Vagyr mothership. Note the position of the asteroid patch on the right and the annoyance of the collector on the left having to go around to dock. Screenshot was taken at the moment both collectors reached their respective runway checkpoints and began to turn to dock.

Runway checkpoint for Vagyr MS RU dropoff is unnecessarily long at just over 1000 metres:

Hiigaran mothership RU dropoff easily positioned next to a patch. The runway checkpoint for dropoffs is only about 300 metres:

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Vaygr has always had a problem with RU collecting vs higgs since hw2 classic came out many years ago. Its the docking of the collectors and drop off points that are a issue. I’m surprised it wasn’t tweaked somewhat for the remaster.

Yup. Here’s hoping GBX can do some nice balancing passes on this issue which relic never did.

Vaygr simply tends to collect 7-15% slower because of their drop off location. Same with Taiidan compared to Kushan.

The collision/pathing makes it worse. Like you should be able to get Vagyr MS right above a patch, or Taiidan right below, but you can’t.
I’d rather this get fixed than increasing their collection rates or something…

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Wow, has nobody thought to move the MS over the patch to speed collection? Works for me, just add 2-3 extra workers to that patch to reduce the wait time while the drop off occurs. This is one of the main reasons Vaygr doesn’t out produce the Hiig in direct fights, seeing as most cost are reduced over the long run.

Don’t think this means I think it doesn’t need some work though.

A tactic so obvious it almost doesn’t need to be mentioned. I did explain it in my post earlier.

Vagyr MS’s long bulk coupled with the current general annoyance with capital pathing issues around asteroids makes it nearly impossible to position the RU dropoff as optimally as the Hiig MS.

And again, the differences in runway checkpoints for dropoffs is huge which can cause collectors to get permanently stuck (until cleared again) if you don’t have 1000+ m clearance on the sides around the dropoff which means it is not always as simple as pulling up alongside a patch.
Ideally you want the rear of the ship to be facing the patch and positioned as close to it as possible but trying to achieve this positioning finesse is time consuming and frustrating.

Yes players do end up having to build extra workers to reach max resourcing cap for their starting patch compared to Hiig - they shouldn’t have to.

Even when you move Taiidan/Vaygr optimally, they’re still slower, and it takes much longer to move to that point.

I’m not sure it’s REALLY an issue, though. They can be balanced around being as strong with 7% less resources.

It’s also common to start resource collector and move MS from the start.

But mothership collision with asteroids for those two races could definitely use improvement.
There’s also a bug where Taiidan kind of starts where the game thinks it’s clipping in, and workers just won’t mine at all.

I guess you missed this?

Nope. You recommended some common tactics along with a vague statement that collectors “need some work”. Couldn’t tell if the context of your post was that you only slightly agreed or that you were simply qualifying your tactics as not being an admission of disagreement.

Is it close to 7%? Also how would you recommend balancing around this point if not by altering the RU dropoffs on the MS?

I believe the mothership, in the best position, collects about 15% slower just from observations I’ve seen of games of Higg vs Vaygr. But carrier is the same, so that cuts it in half assuming you collect the same RUs from both spots.

Vaygr are asymmetrically balanced as it is so it’s easy to change things without hurting consistency.

The problem is that Vaygr have so much bad going for them. I buffed them a bit in my mod, but still think they probably need more.

Assault frigates probably need a buff, their destroyers and BC are probably worse than Hiig’s on top of taking longer to get and being more expensive to upgrade.

The tech tree for Vaygr was a disaster. Yes, they get all their upgrades at once for cheaper than if you combined all the Hiig upgrades, but that just doesn’t work.
The thing is that time is so important when it’s a good player vs good player. Hiigaran can abuse the tech delays so hard by having their intercepters that win 2:1 over Vaygrs because they got speed cheaper and more than a minute earlier.
Then you have torpedo frigates with 50% more HP minutes before Vaygr can get their HP upgrade, so they just win.

I think I made Vaygr significantly stronger by making their research generally around 50%-100% more expensive than a single Hiigaran upgrade, though still around twice as long, rather than 100-200% more expensive and 2-3x longer.
And I lowered the maximum upgrade so upgrades matter a bit less. I did a few adjustments for consistency as well.
That also reduces Vaygrs slight starving of RUs.

I think there’s certainly a bit more needed to make Vaygr on par with Hiigaran, though. Faster missile speed would actually help a ton.
The ship balance themself are mostly good. Vaygr has more specialized things in lancer, laser, missile corv and frigate. I think their point defense on their destroyers and BCs are superior, too.

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