#4

I’m glad you put this together because I certainly wasn’t going to crusade it. Everyone just chants you need the right counter (with what I do not know…).
I didn’t realize the severity of the issue either, the lasers just looked like they were dealing too much damage against frigates to me… I am going to assume maddie wasn’t purposely abusing the bug and thought they were just OP.

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#5

Honestly I didn’t even realize how bad the laser bug was until I tested it, its insane. I knew the missile corvette bug was bad though, but the laser bug is just plain funny watching that video.

#6

Maddie has always been Vaygr in HW2, but he is willing to abuse anything and everything in all games he plays.

Anyways, back to topic, Vaygr corvettes are extremely OP and need to be brought down to HW2 levels. Right now building pulsars is like spamming probes against scouts. They’re completely useless. Please fix this issue.

#7

I was pretty confident something must be wrong after that last tournament when they just melted a destroyer in a single pass.

Thanks again for taking the time out to test these. They help a ton in seeing where there really are problems over just hearsay.
Do rather wish these could have been cut up to be side-by-side comparisons in each video, with a video per comparison for easy access and comparison though. Heh.

Oh and this change is DEFINITELY not due to the range increase.
Basically just about everything got a 10% range increase, but their minimum engagement range also increased 10%. So this is a very tiny change.
Something else is causing this.

I think a lot of weapons are simply hitting twice per shot, and in the case of missiles they sometimes/often hit 3 times.
@scole says missiles are supposed to hit twice, but is that actually confirmed? It seems to me that missiles are doing 50% better vs pulsars cause pulsars might be doing double while missiles do triple.
I see Pulsars vs Dessies in the HW2 video, but dont see their time.

#8

Vaygr concussion missile launcher:

StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Fixed","Missile","Vgr_SmallMissile","Normal",40,2500*1.1,0,0,0,2,1,0,0,7.3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0);
AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","SpawnWeaponFire","Target",0,0,"Vgr_SmallMissileBurst");
AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Miss","SpawnWeaponFire","Target",0,0,"Vgr_SmallMissileBurst");
setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,
{PlanetKillerArmour=0});
setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1);
setAngles(NewWeaponType,180,0,0,0,0);
setMiscValues(NewWeaponType,0,3);

Reads to me as “hitting” twice. Vgr_SmallMissileBurst:

StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Fixed","SphereBurst","Vgr_SmallMissile","Normal",0,0,32,2,0,0,10,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",1,0,0);
AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",90,90,"");
setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,
{unarmoured=0.06},
{lightarmour=0.32},
{MediumArmour=1.08},
{TurretArmour=1.9},
{PlanetKillerArmour=0});
setAngles(NewWeaponType,180,0,0,0,0);

Edit: the MediumArmour = 1.08 is new but wasn’t added by me so against pulsars it would be two hits of 97 but with penetration it would be 3x97

#9

@scole, how so?

To hit twice, it should be something like

StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Fixed","Missile","Vgr_SmallMissile","Normal",40,2500*1.1,0,0,0,2,1,0,0,7.3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0);
AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",90,90,"");
AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","SpawnWeaponFire","Target",0,0,"Vgr_SmallMissileBurst");
AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Miss","SpawnWeaponFire","Target",0,0,"Vgr_SmallMissileBurst");
setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,
{PlanetKillerArmour=0});
setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1);
setAngles(NewWeaponType,180,0,0,0,0);
setMiscValues(NewWeaponType,0,3);

That would make it do 90 damage on hit, then also SpawnWeaponFire that damages in the sphere for 90 to others around(including what is hit)

I’m under the impression that missiles are doing triple, while Pulsars(and probably many other units) are doing double, but I could be wrong. I don’t see a test of pulsars vs destroyers in @Cloaked’s HWRM video that’d make that more conclusive.
Just from how much damage I’ve seen Pulsars doing in damage, and the results of HWRM pulsar vs laser and pulsar vs missile make me think that.

There’s a pulsar vs dessies in the HW2 video but I don’t see it in the HWRM one.

And back to missiles, they’re doing much more than 50% more, which is what a third hit would add. The reason I think we see vs collectors being about 2x faster instead of 3x or 1.5x is because even doing 3x damage isn’t taken advantage to kill 3x faster due to targeting.

#10

HWR
3 Vaygr Destroyers vs 12 Pulsar Corvettes
->11 green pulsars / 2:25 (I tested after I made the hwr video, I can upload another video if anyone wants it)

HW2
3 Vaygr Destroyers vs 12 Pulsar Corvettes
->12 green pulsars / 3:00

Good catch innociv, I didn’t notice pulsar were killing things faster myself. Seems there’s more damage bugs going around that I thought.

#11

So they definitely do more, but it’s about 50% not 2x. That’s definitely not from increased range, again. Range effects how Pulsars attack the least.

I guess it could be from things being more accurate than they should be?..
If they were hitting twice, it should be double damage. I guess they could sometimes hit twice and not others.
And the accuracy thing doesn’t make sense vs destroyers as even though they have 60% accuracy, really they hit 100% of the time.

Now it’s a question of whether it’s just these units or it just effects them much more noticeably due to their weapon.
I’m inclined to think it’s a general issue in tests I did with buffing HW1 units. Things seemed to do much more DPS than I expected by what was on paper.

I’ve looked at the weapons a lot for distinctions that differ things that do way more DPS than expected versus things that don’t, and I really don’t see a distinction except maybe that things around 20-50% accuracy seeming to be effected more.
Like it feels more accuracy gives an exponential increase in DPS instead of linear. Like you’d expect 350 dps at 10% accuracy to be 35, and 350 at 40% to be 140, but instead it seems like the 350 at 40% will do way more.
And I’m talking vs corvs and fighters here. I mean we already know that the 60% accuracy, damage=1 effectively had 100% accuracy against caps, but maybe now the hits are registering twice 40% of the time?

But… that’s even more confusing, as it’d seem Pulsars are doing 1.5 more, while Missile corvs are doing like… 2.25 more? How it gets to 2.25 is even more more crazy. Though probably not so crazy, and simply explained by the increase vs corvs being different than vs caps.
Off the top of my head, I’d guess that’s because in HWRM the misses are just doing 97 damage while hits are doing 97*3, while in HW2 it did 90 either way, so there is less extra on the misses. (though I think spherebursts aren’t full damage on the entire sphere, as well)

Need to see missile corvs vs torp frigates to deduce more.
Hiig gunships would probably work as a better control in these tests, actually. Them and Marine frigs would give a clearer picture of how much faster each unit kills in HWRM.

I’m sure Hiig Gunships are probably stronger in HWRM as well, but they’re so bad, especially vs corvs, that it’ll show a better sense of how much DPS they’re doing.
Problem is that your units you attack can kill yours that lower the dps. If both are stronger, it messes up results.
Even better would be to mod the hiig gunships in both games so they do no damage.

Ideally it’d be nice to have like lancer, missile, laser, pulsar, flak frig, assault frig, interceptor, and bomber all vs hiig gunship and marine frig. (Which means yeah, doing hiig vs hiig since those two units are the best control)
How long it takes for BCs point defense guns to kill passive Hiig gunships that are just sitting beside it would be interesting to know, as I suspect the lance/flechet/pulsar/cannons on those are more accurate and deadly as well.

Did you run this test more than once as well? It would be especially odd if it’s always killing a pulsar in HWRM but not in HW2. It’d indeed suggest that the destroyers guns are more accurate, as everything seems to be.

#12

All tests were run once, except for Missle Corvs vs Pulsar Corvs - which I ran 3 times each. There’s usually a variance of about 1-2 ships in any given battle. In the hw2 test above, 1 of the 12 pulsars was red, the other 11 were green. In the HWR test, 1 died and looks like 2 were smoking a bit.

#13

No need to do any more tests, I tracked it down enough to point a programmer at where in the engine this is occurring.

edit: Except of course if anyone notices something else out of whack, I don’t mean to discourage!

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#14

Thats great news! Glad to hear it.

2 Likes
#15

Here’s an update after the last patch (I’ve got a video if anyone wants it).

12 Laser Corvettes vs 12 Torpedo Frigates
->HWR: 6 mostly red lasers / 1:30
->HW2: 2 yellow torps / 1:30
12 Missile Corvettes vs 12 Pulsar Corvettes
->HWR: 8 yellow/green pulsars / 2:00
->HW2: 6 deep red missiles / 2:00 (did multiple tests, 6 seems to be average)

Looks like the double damage bug bugs got fixed, but they still aren’t performing like they did in hw2. Missiles are now getting beat bad by pulsars. Hopefully the balance mod/patch will fix things.

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#16

The bug we fixed existed in HW2C as well - just with a different behavior as a result (still biased misses vs hits, but a miss didn’t do 2x almost every, 3x never). So it’s a bit complicated - and yes there’s plenty of balancing to do as a result.

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#17

I moved a post to a new topic: Halo 3 PC port?

#18

I thought Missile Corvettes were supposed to lose to Pulsar Corvettes. Lance fighters were the counter to all Corvettes for Vaygr, right?

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#19

Pulsars should be losing to Missiles, since Pulsars are better than Missiles at killing literally everything that isn’t a corvette. Lances should be able to do it with less casualties, certainly, since Pulsars are not super good against fighters.

#20

But it was the Pulser(Lance) beam that’s supposed to be the counter to corvettes. The unit carrying it is just incidental. At least that’s how the new weapon system was advertised when it was introduced in Relic’s reveals.

If the Pulsars “are better than Missiles at killing literally everything,” then their non-corvette damage should be slashed to keep with the original intent.

#21

Lances and Pulsars are not the same weapon, though they have many similarities. The main difference should be in the racial design philosophies: hyperspecialized Vaygr units vs. generalist Hiigaran ones. Pulsars are anti-corvette, but unlike the Vaygr anti-corvette missiles, they have other uses. Missile Corvettes should be, in this school of thought, absolutely murderous against other corvettes.

That’s the theory, obviously right now Pulsars are better at the anti-corvette role. Considering the HW2 results, this is not expected or desirable.

Also, as regards lances, attack style makes a big difference. Lances do hideous damage, but because they’re making attack runs against larger ships where the pulsar corvettes stay locked on and firing constantly, they aren’t so good at the anti-frigate-and-up role. They have a similar problem fighting fighters, though I’m not sure how the accuracy value between them compares.

#22

Well the Vaygr are a bit weird because they usually have a generic multi-purpose unit in their first couple of weight classes and specialize the rest. This was probably done because Vaygr carriers were only able to commit to a single weight class at a time so they needed to be able to cover all bases in one class. Unfortunately, it seems only the Strike Craft line was every full fleshed out before release.

At least in classic it was something like this:

[quote]Vaygr: (* generic unit)
*Fighter - generic T1 unit that all RTS have. Slightly better than the Hiigaran counterpart.
Bomber- Utility ship, platform, and subsystem attacker. Medium damage to cap ships.
Lance Fighter - Shreds Corvette class ships.

*Missile Corvette - More durable generic unit. Very bland, and not used much.
Laser Corvette - High damage to capitol ships, and super damage to Frigates/Carriers.

Frigates - All garbage The *Assault Frigate was the generic one. Sigh…

Destroyer - Tanky and super damage to Frigates and carriers.

Battle Cruiser - God damage to anything it can hit.[/quote]As a result, you only ever needed to build Fighters and Lancers for Corvettes and down, and Laser Corvettes for everything else until you started popping out Destroyers and Battle Cruisers. On the plus side, this did make the the Vaygr the cool swarmy faction that used its carriers as mobile bases closer to the front lines rather than just factories. You needed them close to keep your squads repaired and in the battle.

Now if we’re talking about modifying the Missile corvette’s role then that is another story, but in classic it did feel very un-specialized and bland and was certainly not a dedicated anti-corvette unit.

Note: (I always felt that the Vaygr were complete enough for Campaign to act as the boogie men, but the game was released before they were fully thought out for multi-player.)

#23

This is not the brightest tactic and missiles should not be dismissed as some average-at-everything boring class… This is the only counter for Vaygr to kill lasers that suppresses people from massing them or to protect your lasers from other vettes, not to mention 3 or so sneaky missiles did a good job on collectors while in busy moments.
You cannot just make lances when other side gets more interceptors.
Also, as level 2 speed lasers can outrun pulsars, missiles were better at chasing them too. If you can’t stop missile vettes your patches are dead. They also did well vs fighters too with decent chance of docking if managed properly.