For class mods, check out this guide by @Prismatic
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I’d argue this should be a 3 star skill. Alone it’s not great but the Magazine boosts synergize really well with both Forge and Redistribution. It can be the biggest Mag size increase Moze has. Not to mention it’s not overly hard to keep 3 of the same Manufacturer, an end game example would be a Transformer, a (Hyperion)Stormfront and a Butcher/Crossroads.
Stoke the embers is multiplicative. It also applies to any bonus Fire in the Skag Den Damage applied by short fuse.
The stopping you’re noticing is probably because you’ve picked up ammo inadvertently and are now at max ammo. Forge can’t regen your total ammo pool past max ammo. Incidentally you can use this in your favour to get the most out of Click, Click… When you’re near an ammo machine empty your mag to the desired level then quickly buy ammo. This will soft cap your mag size.
Stronger than Forge is a conditional statement. With the Re-trigger delay of 0.3 Forge is guaranteed to be better for mag sizes above 67. Which isn’t a particularly lofty target for AR’s or SMG’s. I’d maybe add to the statement that it’s better for small mag weapons such as shotguns or most Jakobs.
Shield of Retribution
This will probably be my most controversial point but I think this should be 3 stars. I say this because outside of 1hp builds this skill is far more average. If you go above 2/3 you lose health gating which is the best defensive mechanism in the game. I’d class Thin Red Line as an all or nothing investment, it’s 5 stars for 1hp Desperate measure shenanigans, but possibly harmful to all other setups.
It’s additive to Selfless Vengeance and Cloud of Lead but Multiplicative to Stoke the Embers.
I think the analysis is too heavily focused on 1hp Bloodletter builds. Even outside of Bloodletter at this point in the tree the values are just straight below average. It competes with Desperate Measures and it’s bonus doesn’t benefit from the Capacity stacking that the rest of SOR favours.
Again I think the analysis needs to consider builds that don’t go for 1hp. Desperate Measures is 5 star in all setups but the analysis doesn’t show why.
I’d argue this is a 3 star skill, SOR packs the majority of Moze’s gun damage. Most builds after raw damage will come down the tree to get Phalanx Doctrine. For any non 1hp build this is a 1 pointer that restores 40% max shields and gives 30% gun damage, for 1 POINT!!!
I think everyone is playing catch up to the amazing work going on in the Amara section.
Also we should probably put together a compilation of the colours we’re using for Moze. I notice your guides are different to mine, keeping everyone uniform would be a nice visual detail that shouldn’t be too hard if we start early.
tenacious defense needs a rework it does not work if u have 1hp which is mostly selected build for moze atm
Trouble with Matched Set is it competes first with Cloud of Lead, which I’d argue is just plain better in most normal circumstances. The decreased ammo consumption is a quasi magazine increase already, not to mention having a bunch of extra benefits (e.g. full ammo efficiency rather than just clip efficiency). 5/5 Cloud of Lead is equivalent to +33% magazine, so it’s already better than 3-piece Matched Set (with 4-pieces, you could argue for a split in points, incidentally).
Also note that decreased ammo consumption is just as synergistic with the ammo regen skills. While it doesn’t increase the ammo you get back directly, it does increase the rate of regen relative to the rate of consumption, which is what matters. Put it another way, it alters shots per ammo, therefore it makes you regen more shots per second even if ammo per second is the same.
While I agree with you that in most circumstances Cloud of Lead is the better skill. (A rating of 3 stars would still reflect this)
I don’t think the disparity is as big as a 2vs4 star rating reflects.
True, but in the case of where you add Redistribution +33% virtual mag is not equivalent to 33% actual mag. Mag size increases are multiplicative to Redistribution. I’ll have to actually breakdown the formula to work out where the breaking point is for 3 gear Matched set being better than Cloud of lead but I suspect it’s around the point where [base mag]/[base fire rate x ammo per shot]=7. If we add Forge into the mix this would swing further into Matched Sets favour.
These sorts of conditions being met aren’t common for an SOR/Demo spec that just grabs to Redistribution but for a Bottomless mags build where you are likely to use AR’s or Vladof Pistols then it’s more common.
I’m going have to find time to actually do the math on this stuff and report back on this.
To give something 2 stars means you have to build around it to make it work and 5 points is a hefty cost…Cloud of Lead is more consistent.
Out of curiosity, how did you do the math? Also, Short Fuse doesn’t trigger splash perks…not unless two people are standing right next to each other when the splash happens, but that hardly ever happens.
I just tested and you’re right…Knowing is half the battle
I stated “As long as you have high-tick grenades out” as the condition. The re-trigger delay is for grenades only, not ammo.
The reason I put so much emphasis on 1 HP builds because they are one of the strongest builds you can make for endgame BL3…we’re talkin 60k shields, and unlimited damage potential. If you’re going down the SoR tree for any reason other than this, it’s either a waste, or a particular build setup we don’t know about.
5 stars doesn’t assume its great for all setups, it assumes that perk is a game changer for a particular build…up to 100% gun damage is def a game changer for doing what the tree was designed to do…
Again…going down this tree and choosing not to have up to 60k shields is questionable…and 30% gun damage is small compared to the rest of the damage buffs you’re getting. You’re taking away from your own survivability and damage potential for a perk
Shooting a basic torgue pistol. I was getting 4 numbers. The Torgue pistol and it’s splash, Short fuse and then a 4th fire damage number. This under about 4 different arrangements of skills and crit verse non crit tests lined up with being fire in the skag den proccing on the short fuse damage. I didn’t check if it fails to proc if the original projectile is non splash.
Regarding the 1hp setups: If we base the ratings around what it does in the 1hp setup is that not the same as saying the skills are good when built around. Did you not just penalize Matched Set for requiring a emphasis from the build. Barring Thin Red Line I’m not saying any of the others should have a rating reduction. I agree with the ratings, I just don’t think the analysis does justice to builds that aren’t all in on 1hp.
The first build that comes to mind is the Immortal AFK Moze which is specifically not 1hp and is heavily invested into SOR. SOR and Vampy are Moze’s only survival routes. So not speccing into SOR is illogical barring pure Grenade spam. Shield Tanking difficult endgame with Moze is also heavily reliant on a Bloodletter com. Without the com 1hp builds have very little ability to sustain themselves. So to base analysis around 1hp builds is assumes everyone is using a Bloodleter.
Good skill guide. Thanks for taking the time to out this together for the community.
This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through the skills scoring and the descriptions. 1/hp builds are pretty good and really common but there are currently at least 2 other top tier builds.
Yeah somebody beat me too it.
The nature of Moze’s coms and skills interaction make her a very difficult character to identify.
She has a single com(Bloodletter) that substantially increases the value of some of her skills. Not sure what to change without doing a seperate guide for Bloodletter/non-Bloodletter since that single com changes the value placed on certain skills so drastically.
Anyways, I could maybe see an argument to be made for Matched Set being a three star skill. A 50% increase to magazine of all weapons is big bonus. With the items currently in game I don’t think it’s too powerfull, but who knows what gear will be added in the future that could increase it’s potential value. I could see this skill possibly being a three star…but I guess sitting next to Cloud of Lead somewhat detracts from that.
Also these silly ass Mayhem modifiers means the we are no longer in the days of “set it and forget it” since we are forced to change peices of equipped gear around as often as every time we change maps.
I have a few more thoughts I’ll likely revisits this post later. For now I can barely stay awake and I still have a 2 hour drive and then a 2 hour flight! Yikes!
I mean, I just pick 5/5 Matched Set (and other mag size bonus)because I want all my Vladof launchers to be at 30+ mortars/mag.
I’m curious. How are the non-1 HP builds that are specced into SoR working?
This is the build I mentioned in my previous reply.
Blastmaster Moze is another example of non 1hp. You can spec Demo-SoR then and rely on a mix of Vampyr restoring Health and a medium size shield(By Moze’s standards atleast).
SoR’s defensive properties are so often talked about but what’s less discussed is that Click Click and Scorching RPM’s are the only Gun Damage/Crit Boosts outside of SoR that Moze has.
But wouldn’t they loose the damage from Desperate Measures if they don’t take Thin Red Line? Or is there a balance to go for?
They wouldn’t get the full benefit of Desperate Measures without Thin Red Line/Deathless Artifacts. This is kind of my point about the skills being analysed almost purely from a 1hp perspective. There’s no discussion about the trade offs a non 1hp build would have to consider here.
A balance such as 2/3 Thin Red Line and 3/3 Desperate Measures is still a minimum 20% damage in a build that has full use of health gating.
1hp builds will continue to be the most popular(and probably most powerful) as it drains every last drop of synergy it possibly can from a Bloodletter-TRL-DM build. That however shouldn’t be the only facet talked about for these skills. If the skill only works in that set up and it’s merits lie solely in that 1 setup then by definition of these ratings it’s a 2 star skill. These late skills are definitely not 2 stars, they are game changing even to builds that don’t utilize 60% health reservation.
What do you think of a Shield Maiden or Tactician COM with at least +3 in Phalanx Doctrine as an alternative to Blastmaster or Bloodletter? I get that Blastmaster can supply the 100% damage you get from Thin Red Line and Desperate Measures, but suppose you want to run BM/SoR without having 1hp and relying on splash damage. If the PD stacks are almost as strong as Drowning in Brass stacks, maintaining four or five of them would make up for not picking the legendary COMs.
(I normally run BM/SoR (most points in BM) with 1hp and no Vampyr and rely on ammo boxes for healing, since having 1hp biases them towards health vials.)
Barring a perfect roll I think Tactician is subpar. I don’t understand Selfless vengeance on a com that also boosts bottomless mags. Shield Maiden I really like.
I think +3 phalanx doctrine is a stable base platform. However they lack the the raw power of Blast Master or the endurance of Bloodletter so I’d put them around the next tier down.
For instance against Maliwan troops you can usually stack Phalanx quickly enough to be fine. However against CoV you run into both higher damage rockets and high health annointed. These situations I feel are where both coms fall off a bit as they can’t hunt trash mobs to get momentum because they’ll be gunned down. And without momentum they lose the dps race.
Vampyr can paper over this to an extent but in any situation where I have Vampyr and am asked to pick a non legendary com I’d probably go to Markswoman as boosting Scorching RPM’s is massive for Moze’s damage potential.
A lot to respond to…I just want to address a few things for everybody first:
This guide is a foundation for Moze players whose goal is TVHM/M3… which means I’m excluding off-brand builds and weird setups that justify the rating of a perk…if I do reference a build (i.e. 1 HP bloodletter builds for SoR), its the general consensus that these are the best for that tree, and already support what you’re trying to do.
Ratings (stars) are based on other established Borderlands guides…I didn’t make the system…barring any mistakes on my part, the opinion on them doesn’t change. (i.e. Matched Set is two stars because it has to be built around to work…period)
I’m noticing a lot of theory crafting going on…please test these perks/builds first to see if they actually work in TVHM/M3 (bosses & mobs)…I’ve personally tested most aspects of Moze, so I only talk about what works, not what MIGHT work.
If I’m putting emphasis on 1 HP builds, bloodletters, etc, it’s because they fit the goal of SoR as a whole…you can run anything you want, but like I said, this is a foundational guide…1 HP and bloodletter-based builds are what most aim for when they go down this tree.
You cant tell if something is multiplicative based on it being the only boost you have…You need some other boost to tell.
Shooting a ratch with a fire gun with 322 card damage and 10.65 damage from guardian rank gives 635 dmg.
3 points in Stoke gives 826 (635 * 1.3 = 825.5, game rounds numbers = 826)
COM with +25 percent weapon damage does NOT give 984 (635 *(1+.3+.25)) but 1032
((635 * 1.25)*1.3=1031.875). Which is how multiplicative boosts work.
Closed at OP’s request