Watched a video on Zane being a problem. Thoughts?

Haven’t played in a while, but watched a video on Zane being OP. The guy shows him using guns that aren’t really meta which isn’t a bad thing I believe. If you build towards that weapon being op, then I think it’s fine. This guy makes it seem like he’s just that broken, but then he shows all this gear he has and I’m thinking, “Is it the gear he’s using or is it really just the new skill tree?” I think Flak is one of the more enjoyable guys because you have to collect a lot of optimal gear to make him powerful. I think a lot of the enjoyment of the game is collecting gear to make yourself a lot more powerful, but if you’re already baseline powerful, then it loses meaning. I used to want Iron Bear to be OP because before IB was just extra health. Now it’s just broken without any gear. I kinda wanted something in the middle now. What do you guys think? Is this guy justified? Who do you think is the most gear dependent?

4 Likes

Zane with purple tree can get more gun damage than all of the other chars put together times 2 or 3. Not total DPS, just gun damage. And has the 2nd highest crit damage, debuff, and the second most V2 in skill tree. As well as 100% uptime on ASS, ASA, and ASE anoints all at the same time.

Just food for thought.

23 Likes

Not even that you can put it in realistic terms, Commitment HAS NO STACK CAP. In turn making maths useless for comparison as Zane has no true weapon damage cap.

12 Likes

Functionally though, it will get to a point where stacks decay just as fast as you get them, which at the top end is around 100 or more commitment stacks. That is still 3000% gun damage without factoring in extra skill points or DFC.

That is over x6 what FL4K gets from fully stacked Stackbot, which in of itself was as much or more gun damage than Moze and Amara put together.

11 Likes

Remember when GItM got “adjusted” because it was “performing better than intended”?

7 Likes

While I get that this is a single player game, I think there is still a level of power that is just unnecessary. Getting 1000s of % of gun damage from a single skill whose only condition is to spam the action skill (if you have commitment, you have access to Spy COM) while also having a great damage formula is beyond that point. Mantis and the rest of purple tree barring commitment already provide so much damage on their own by diversifying Zane’s damage formula. Throwing in commitment is just…why?

11 Likes

Spy COM/Professional tree vs everyone else’s DLC5 offering was what finally made me quit playing BL3.

I was relatively excited about some of the pet changes in the Trapper tree but this optimism was quickly turned to bitterness when I seen the absurdity that was Zane’s 4th tree.

6 Likes

Should then everyone also stop playing BL2 because Salvador was quite OP as well? Or so I’ve heard. :wink:

3 Likes

I’m a bit lazy so I’ll just post the same thing I posted on the video.

This of course, a really controversial video. I have never played Zane so I can’t add or argue really, I play Moze ONLY cause: EXPLOSIONS?

All I CAN say from my experience is this: Every character should be able to have at least a variety (4+) different general builds that are fun and have perks that make the game enjoyable and every character should feel unique in some way.
You SHOULDN’T pick a character and kill things with the exact same way as another character, there must be variety and uniqueness and the builds themselves should also be fun (of course fun entails a minimum amount of dpm as well) and unique.

Also, do Zane mains have fun oneshoting everything with any weapon? Do you feel that your build is special or do you feel like you’re just using a generic build and can’t make any other build that is JUST AS FUN as the meta one? If yes then that’s cool with me really.
I’m saying fun because damage output is not the same as fun. In my Moze, I could go for full damage but then I never felt comfortable playing so I had to make small adjustments in order to buff up my surviability a bit and thus being more comfortable/having more fun.
Now I’m sure that if they were to nerf my Moze in a way that impacted my damage output and I needed more than 10 seconds to kill a badass enemy I would be outraged and actually sad so I can’t really support the idea of nerfing a character.

The thing is, they need to find a way to make any VH enjoyable and powerfull enough to be able to overcome challenges without busting their balls.
We all should still be able to do a similar but not exactly the same DPM and I’m saying damage per minute since I believe it’s at those points where the difference really shines. If I need 5 minutes to clear an area with one character (meta build) and 20 minutes with another then there is a problem here.

This whole thing is a really sad thing because it can divide the community and I just hope that if they nerf Zane they won’t nerf him to the ground since I really can imagine how angry and/or sad Zane mains would be, but to a level that he can be as effective as any other VH using a good build and good weapons, but also having an actual variety of builds that are all effective and fun at the same time. I also really hope GBX learns from these mistakes and thinks really carefully how to move from here.

I love this game and I don’t want to see it destroyed by radical and not well-thought decisions.

(Actually, this is very long but let’s make it a bit longer since this is a perfect time to give my thoughts about Moze (and no, I don’t have the purple tree dlc)
Soo, after playing with Moze, using the blue tree as a staple because I just like explosions to much, I found out this: Moze is tons of fun and her action skill is amazing. I used to use my cute little Iron Bear waaaay too much at the beginning and I loved it. But after finishing the game and going into mayhem, I realized that with my current build I could only rely on IB to do enough damage and I didn’t like that. I wanted variety, so I messed up with my trees and after a lot of trials I found the sweet spot where I can do enough damage and stay alive easily without using Iron Bear at all. Of course that being sait, I still need good gear but I think that should be a given at Mayhem. Anyway, when things get hard, or when I’ve fallen more than 3 times then I’ll hop into Iron Bear and desecrate everything. And that is fun for me. So from my personal experience, Moze is a really fun character with build variety even when using only the vanilla trees, and Iron Bear Being so strong isn’t actually ruining my experiece since I don’t enjoy relying only on him and he has a very very very long cooldown. Those are my thoughts and of course I would hate for them to nerf my IB or my skill trees and that’s why I can relate to every Zane main who got angry from this video, but I really think Moze is in a good spot so I’m not too stresset. But this is GBX so you never know when the d!ldo will find it’s way up your @ss. That’s why this is so sad, because I a game is important to you, then the developer’s mistakes can really mess up your experience and fun. Also, the reason this last part is so dense writen and unreadable is because it’s not my opinion about the matter and I didn’t want my comment to be so huge you need to scroll for minutes. Thanks for reading, if you did.)

5 Likes

I guess so far zane really is that op. I actually agreed with the PvE argument that the guy in the vid has. There needs to be balance amongst characters. I just need more gear dependency on each of the vault hunters. Flak I think is in a good spot, amara maybe, Moze seems good I think. Moze’s IB seems broken to me though, needs to be more of a middle ground damage-wise, but maybe Zane is kinda broke

2 Likes

Difference was that Salvador was OP due to unintended interactions and broken mechanics. Zane’s 4th skill tree is “working as intended”.

11 Likes

I have to echo the Salvadore comparisons. Regardless of intent, you can still make the argument that Sal wasn’t patched or rebalanced either. That said, I feel Zane would be better received if his Salvadore-tier performance wasn’t behind a paywall.

Why are we here? I mean, we can only guess, but I’m firmly in the camp of “way too many people overreacted to nerfs in the early post-release lifecycle to the game”. We still have people grumbling about nerfs now. So Gearbox are now, seemingly, risk-averse.

Is that the reason? Like I said, I can only guess. But Gearbox have moved towards “buff all the things” and away from a more nuanced approach at satisfying character balance, and players did and do still complain any time anything gets nerfed, nomatter how reasonable the nerf. Based on these facts, that’s the conclusion I’m drawing. Others might see it differently.

6 Likes

I am also a Moze main and I think she’s pretty diverse actually, IB is the main problem with her IMO, it’s just too strong without gear investment. Game is like 60% gear, 40% skills for me to enjoy. I loved presequel for that reason. So good, if they could mod in the characters from pre-sequel into bl3, I would play it non-stop.

I agree with the point about having different playstyles, but maybe Zane is that character for people to play just to be OP with everything. That might be fine except in multiplayer it completely shows how dominant Zane is. I think Moze could use every weapon for example, but every build has to change for it. Zane doesn’t seem to really change the build despite the weapon. I think that’s where people are angry

2 Likes

Yeah it sucks that you can’t please everybody. Many people say, “It’s a PVE game, let it happen. Just don’t use that build if you think it’s unenjoyable.” While people like us think, “It needs to be a bit more balanced and I welcome the nerfs if it’s the right one.” I think people who played all 4 characters have a better perspective. To me the guy in the video is right in some ways. The gun he said shouldn’t make it to the guardian takedown should actually be viable if built the right way. Like Moze would need splash, gun damage, blastmaster and for shreddifier, maybe some vladof passives on the relic and a green monster class mod. He’s right that character balance is important, but maybe when this game dies, I don’t think there will be a season 3, modders will balance the game like BL2.

I can agree that Iron Bear is very strong, but don’t forget the huge cooldown he has and that if you’re using the vanquisher rockets you will very likely destroy him the moment you lose focus and shoot too close or a shielded anointed or maliwan soldier or kamikazee psycho or basically anything comes too close to you. So he’s kinda crippled and I prefer him being crippled by his own power rather than being weak. After all, he’s a mech, he should be powerfull. And yes you can decrease the cooldown but that takes a lot of points into useless skills that cripple Moze. So again, he’s kinda balanced by being hella strong but still needing attention (like a cute bear <3).

Also, lets not forget that with the right build, you can actually do even more damage than Iron Bear so I really think he’s balanced. At least I have found peace and balancce in my build.

But that’s just my personal experience and opinion.

1 Like

Commitment is a big problem IMO, no stack limit was always a bad choice since because of seein red and Spy you can stack it up to 30-40 stacks (in my case, I’ve seen people doing more).

That being said, if you nerf/put a cap on the skill now, people will implode and cry on the forums/reddit again because of “muh PVE game, no nerfs, only buff” mentality, as if balance and good game design was an alien concept to them because you’re hurting their “fun”.

Personally, I’ve said since release that the skill needs a cap of 5 stacks (and even then it would still be incredible strong), but 2 stacks is what it should really be IMO.

9 Likes

You know, it’s be actually kinda fun if they capped it to a point that you would do good damage, but not list the cap on the skill cap so nobody would know, like the anarchy (the weapon).

Iron Bear doesn’t kill itself with the nukes or railguns (which is what I use in my IB Moze build with Raging Bear). Personally, I feel like they made Iron Bear way too strong back in the Mayhem 4 days and that was a mistake, they should’ve scaled action skill damage like what we have now in Mayhem 2.0.

1 Like

I’d rather leave zane were he is, its not that I don’t think he is to powerful but, I don’t believe gbx will handle it properly due to their prior history with nerfs and buffs.

1 Like

Oh yeah I know about the nukes and I like them, I just main the bare Vanquisher rockets most of the time. I must admit that I was lucky enough to not play the game during mayhem 1.0. So is Iron Bear more balanced now in mayhem 2.0? How was he before?

1 Like