We get it, but chill on the “representation” in video games

Where I live, if I walked in to a room full of only white people it would not be considered diverse. But that’s Canada for you… :canada:

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Bottom line is pretty simple. What does it change to your life? I’m a white, goth straight metal head. I dont need representation in a game to feel good. If there is then its cool, ill be like : Hey, thats nice. Other than that I realy dont care about sexual orientation/look/what did they eat last night of any character in a game. What matters to me is the quality and the originality of the characters and for that, Borderlands always delivered.

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what does it have to do with canada

I’m really not sure what Feculator described is a thing in academia. I’ve worked in 3 universities over a span of 10 years. In my experience ‘straight white males’ are not disadvantaged there (I’m actually grinning as I type that!), and there is no pressure for me to be ‘more attracted’ to any gender or person that I’m not. I haven’t seen publications arguing for that (there are plenty of weird and wonderful articles on sexual politics around but I wouldn’t say any have lodged the prevailing norms you describe). I know a lot of people who wish sexual harassment of younger, usually female students wasn’t a thing in universities - that’s much more of an issue… Of course, your experience may be different.

Unless by ‘constructivism’ you’re talking about the art movement started by Tatlin? I’m really interested in Russian revolutionary art, wish I knew more about it!

I haven’t really seen this in the thread.

And yes, people say things I disagree with all the time about ‘straight, cis male main character[s]’, and the word problematic gets thrown around too much in my opinion - I don’t see it much on the forums, fortunately, though the post I’m replying to is an exception!

I haven’t actually seen their hair choice criticised. I know you want to link stuff to wider issues, but the post you quoted was quite specific, and in response to the claim that female’s hair is too similar in the Borderlands games. I thought it was an odd point, made odder by the gender focus.

This seems a slightly mangled summary of some academic arguments that were very popular in the '80s. They’ve got loads of pushback since then. I’m not sure how it links to the thread at hand, i.e. whether or not too many gay people and women are represented in Borderlands 3.

If I’m reading your stance right, we share some of the same perspectives on post-structuralist trends… but I think bringing it up here may be giving those ideas more than they’re due. It seems quite likely that, for instance, Fl4k is a nonbinary character because their creator is non-binary, worked at Gearbox, and wanted to use their chance to write a character by representing an experience they identify with. I doubt the diehard Foucauldians who still haunt the halls of my uni had anything to do with that really!

Again, I thirst for linked evidence on how many fans of Borderlands are ‘able-bodied, cis-gendered, straight men, who display masculine traits’. Maybe they are. You’ll dig the academic concern for supported statements though.

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Thank you, nice read and respectful.

As if the people not fitting of your preferred look for society aren’t “all” humans, lol.

@Hattie, I’ll play.

It doesn’t matter what percentage of the player base is able-bodied, cis-gendered, straight men, who display masculine traits, this point is irrelevant to my real claim:

Why don’t you address my real claim:

I think that the writers of this game were trying to be inclusive to may different types of folks, while at the same time also trying to exclude able-bodied, cis-gendered, straight men, who display masculine traits.

In this case, the writers excluded, and think that they would admit it. It is pretty heavy handed.

Side thought: I believe that the writers of this game took a great risk by trying to start this, exact conversation… it baffles me that the mods insist on continuously interrupting in in this topic by locking or temporarily closing the dialogue. Just let if flow… if we cross a line give us our warning as established in the “Forum Rules”.

Because you’re a sane(probably) human.

Either VH made a joke that went over my head or he’s saying Canada is mainly white or something else. Don’t think about it that hard

looks at volderthread yeah these never end well

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Then why did you mention it? :confused:

To address your main argument, if what you said was irrelevant. I haven’t finished Borderlands 3 yet, but from what I’ve played so far we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on whether or not awesome straight men (a more general category than you specified I admit) are included. Rhys and Zane have me quite abuzz.

To the more general point, I don’t really care who is represented in games, though I think it’s nice that people who rarely are get their odd day in the sun. I’m old-fashioned in that I just like an interesting story, with characters that intrigue and get into my head a bit. Exclude or include who you will.

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hahahahahaha I am kinda sane, yes. Depends on the day and how I feel, for some people judging me by my look and way of life I am probably batshit crazy but thats on them. And yes, canada is mostly white , I didnt understand it like that. Thank you

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Canada is a mulitcultural and highly diverse country (well, if you live in major cities anyway.). A room full of white people (regardless of sexual orientation) would be a sign that either 1950s racial attitudes are firmly in play, or you’ve accidentally stepped through a portal to somewhere else entirely. (Or, you’re in a highly rural area that doesn’t see too many immigrants.)

So to the claim of an Apple employee allegedly fired for saying a room full of white folks could be diverse… I’m just saying there’s absolutely no chance of that going unchallenged up here, because it wouldn’t make sense.

It sounds like you just agree with me… We have tipped the scales too far.

Am I reading your comment right?

Always try to take disagreement with charity. There is nothing ‘homophobic’ about complaining about the modern diversity push, and how much mission creep and spread it’s had.

No. It’s not that, and I think you know it. You are engaging in a Strawman Fallacy. What the OP is saying - albeit inelegantly, is that the current diversity mission creep is getting out of hand. And in this thread, we’ve seen moderators going on about ‘fragile masculinity’ (which is, in and of itself, pretty damn bigoted) and people claiming that being straight is somehow wrong.

It’s a much bigger issue than just one game.

This is a Kafkatrap. Don’t do that.

Again, I have no problem with the ‘diversity’ in BL3. But this thread has broadened to a general discussion of intersectionalism and the current diversity push, which is very much my baliwick.

If you want a better example, look at what happened to Far Cry. Or Cyberpunk.

Far Cry 3 was criticized for ‘white male savior’ complex and a lack of diversity. Far Cry 4 got the same criticism. Far Cry 5 was thus ultra diverse, and the same activists actually complained about this too - because some of the enemies were black. PM me if you want specific articles.

Cyberpunk, no matter what the devs attempted, couldn’t satiate the activists. Eventually they had to remove the choice of male/female altogether.

I quoted an example in my post.

This would be lovely. But this is not the reality, because the mindset of the people pushing this stuff is very much as you described. They want to be the ones holding the whip. Which, again, is why a black female employee from Apple was destroyed for suggesting that diversity is a matter of thought, not physical attributes.

Hah. She was essentially saying that diversity isn’t a matter of race or orientation, and is a matter of thought and style. She was forced to apologize and was fired.

This is the stuff that a lot of people are pushing back against.

I assume that you aren’t working in the Humanities…

I’m using ‘constructivism’ as a shorthand for a combination of Hegel, Marx and the Frankfurt School, which basically underpin what is being taught in the Humanities. Essentially - everything is a social construct, and all old constructs are bad and must be overthrown.

And hell, how many protests have we seen throwing around terms like ‘disrupting whiteness’, ‘disrupting masculinity’ and ‘white lives matter too much’?

If you want, I can link you to a study about liberal bias in Universities…

Which I have no problem with. What I do have a problem with is CDPR being pilloried by far left activists for simply having the choice of playing a male/female character.

Also - I do actually see a fair bit of Foucald these days, but mostly its a mangled corpse of Hegel being pushed through a mesh of Marxism and genuinely crazy people like Ta Nehisi Coats and Bell Hooks being taught as correct.

Never said Borderlands 3. I said ‘shooters’. I definitely read something on this, I’ll try and dig it up if you’d like. If I recall, the majority of female gamers primarily played more casual games.

Yeah, I’m not sure either. My wife worked in Canadian universities. The one she was it had mandatory ‘social justice training’, which basically told people that all white people are by default bigoted against any non-white person, and that even a statement as neutral as ‘you speak English well’ or ‘where are you from?’ is a microaggression.

Canada is…pretty nuts. A comedian faced serious penalties for telling politically incorrect jokes a while back.

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Ahem

Not sure what the policy is regarding linking stuff, but here’s a decent summary.

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got ya, but I dont get it. Whats bad in saying a room full of white people can be diverse, arent we all different? I sure doesnt look liken nor have the same personality and beliefs as my neighbor who is also white. Thats just getting offended for the sake of being offended IMO

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OK MAN, One things for sure and that is that FL4K is most certainly BINARY. Badum Tsss
But to add to the thought of this; this is not your game and they certainly have done a lot to stick to the series bones as a whole. I do understand what you are trying to point out, but I think there are still a bunch of ways you can customize a character to your liking and have them be yours and unique, if you are looking for a way to play a pretty princess that frolics around not sure if this is the game for you lol. But lets be realistic here, a lot of the characters derive from their lore, not idk about you but its kind of hard to really make a pageant queen a mass murdering looting mercenary. As far as the sexuality of the characters, you still have to realize, this is a company and they are trying their best to appease all audiences. I’m sure if you care that much about it and many others hated that they were bending the knee to said, “snowflakes” and decided not to purchase the game they would certainly change the way they develop.

Diversity:

I don’t share that impression. Maybe it’s a code for: not exclusively straight white male.

I do not see a threat there.

Hm, I can only speak for myself, but I do not choose what turns me on, to put it blandly. It’s just the way it is. Is there in fact a problem with depicting people that are not only into the opposite gender?

Nice try. Since my post was quoted below anyway, one could have included the list of cis male characters I included there, that were just those in my game library. But you seem aware enough that we’re not talking Pong here, so that dodge is rather pointless.

Actually, the OP complained among other points about Fl4k and Moze. So yes, player characters are part of the matter here.

Sarcasm on:
No, it’s bad, terrible, filthy. We don’t need more cis male heroes! We need ONLY cis male heroes!
Sarcasm off

Seriously? Anyone feeling threatened by a game that doesn’t have this kind of hero? No? Didn’t think so.

See above. Or would your point be that it’s better to leave everyone but said majority out? Because sure, the cis males are quite underrepresented in the media…

Yeah, it’s a hard life being a straight male. Best job chances, automatic member of most “clubs”. If the point is to look beyond BL3 at media representation then kindly look at mainstream media. Crime series with gay lead characters? One (Instinct) in dozens. Most of the film heroes? Manly men.

What is the yammering about, is a legit question considering this.

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Ah, shame, I thought we could have an interesting talk about Russian revolutionary art for a moment there.

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That’s an excellent question. Think about that for a while.

She was also a black woman, amusingly. And she got annihilated in the press. For making, what I consider to be both a true and uncontroversial claim.

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thats what I am saying, she knows what being a minority is and she says color or race doesnt make you more diverse. She is totally right. People scream equality, until its the other way around. I’m all in for diversity, I dont want to be taken as a racist or something ( I’m french so making a point in english cans sometimes be hard for me) but someone being black or mexican doesnt make them more special or diverse than me.

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