Well, guess I kinda killed the replay value unintentionally

GBX’s solution to difficulty in BL games seems to be adding huge numbers to the armor/shield/health instead of fixing their wonky AI… And hell no… BL2 was way worse with difficulty. Master Gee?.. So stupid… Bullet sponges are not fun and are most assuredly boring.

Wotan is the way to do it… A huge end boss that has interesting moving mechanics, many stages with limited immunity, and if you don’t control the fight, he unleashes tons of minions to keep you busy trying not to die while you attempt to take him down. More of that, please!


No, there is no challenge because the game is far too easy. Like I said, if I know I can easily knock you out with 1 punch then me tying one hand behind my back isn’t making the fight more challenging. This game is only “challenging” if I totally stop trying to play the game as it was made, and start putting a whole bunch of silly artificial limitations on how I play. I could play with my mouse reversed and standing on my head. It would make the game more challenging, but it’s not going to make it any more fun.

Well, let’s start by shutting down the concept that Difficulty alone = replayability.

Difficulty is ONE aspect that can increase replayability, but not the only thing. One thing that BL2 did that was INFINITELY better as far as difficulty goes was having Normal and True Vault Hunter modes be two entirely different playthroughs with two entirely different skill factors involved. In BL3 there’s no difference. ZERO. Especially once you turn on Mayhem mode. There is literally no reason for TVHM to even be in the game because it doesn’t actually exist. BL2 took that a step further when they added UVHM and then again with OP levels. Each change made the game exponentially more difficult and you could replay the entire game from the start on each setting.

In BL3 the whole Mayhem system just makes the game annoying to play. The modifiers SUCK and never should have been setup as a “Difficulty” setting at all. As far as I’m concerned the game has ONE gameplay mode, and then after you’ve beaten the game you can go back and replay levels, on Mayhem 11. The only purpose TVHM serves is to reset the quests so you can play through the quests and story on the harder difficulty ONCE, but that’s it.

The other thing BL2 did that was infinitely better was have a vast array of DLC content available for it. The DLC campaigns plus the Headhunter challenges all had little stories that you played through, giving you a compelling reason to play. All BL3 has was Season 1 content, two storyless single level Takedowns, then the storyless single level Arms Race, and then Ava’s Murder Mysteries and one raid boss. Literally Season 1 DLC which I liked, three storyless random maps, one raid boss, and an edit to the original game to add back in the content they left out at the start.

And let’s not forget that the Arms Race and a single skill tree add on for each character cost $30 where the BL2 Headhunter challenges were $2.99 each. Ava’s Murder Mystery and the single raid boss was another $30. For the price of an entire brand new game you could get Arms Race, Ava’s Murder Mystery, a new skill tree, and a single raid boss. THAT more than anything is where BL3 went wrong.

You want to see a game that does it right? Go look at the content that Dying Light has. It’s 5 years old and still getting better support at a FAR cheaper price than Gearbox gives BL3.


And that is why you fail… Dude, what I said still stands. You choose to make the game as easy as possible and then limit the fun you can have. And you’re reading comprehension needs some work. The thing is, yeah, the game is super easy to complete… But that’s only if you want it to be. I think you said something about how you do not like artificially limiting yourself because you’re so good at the game that tying an arm behind your back does nothing for you… It would be interesting to know what you do for work… or what your other hobbies are… Because if you have that same attitude in life… I don’t know man.

It seems you take the smallest thing and allow it to put a sour taste in your mouth for whatever it is you’re doing. Borderlands 3 would piss me off too, if I had that attitude. :man_shrugging:

This I can agree with…

I fixed that for you… More shield/health/armor does not increase difficulty… Only annoyance…

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@korben44 I will admit that I have myself had my Amara interest rekindled recently by the Blade Fury. Personally, I generally prefer melee by punching, but Amara’s skills/mechanics make the Blade Fury quite interesting from a gear perspective and certainly very powerful. I haven’t been playing a ton lately, but the Blade Fury Amara builds are fun to me and I do love my Jakobs, so what little I have been playing, I have kinda gotten more into Amara than I would have otherwise, solely because of the Blade Fury. If you build around it, it is stupid powerful.

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And that is why you are simple minded.

Do you finding walking to the store more enjoyable if you walk backwards because it’s more difficult than walking forwards?

And you comment about MY reading comprehension?

Try quoting what I wrote word for word, and see if it matches what you THINK I said. If it does not, put your own attitude and judgements in check dude, because you’re being a child.

And it would be interesting to know what you do, to see if you get more enjoyment from doing it by simply handicapping yourself in order to make the same mundane task harder. Flip burgers for a living? It’s more fun if you only use 2 fingers to hold the spatula, right? Oh, and if you also close one eye it’s amazingly fun, right? But nothing is as enjoyable as flipping burgers while holding the spatula with two fingers, have one eye closed, and hop on one foot all at the same time. Try it. It’s amazing.

Seriously, that’s what you’re trying to convince me of here.

And I would probably think Borderlands 3 was fantastic if I didn’t think too much and hadn’t played anything else.

Here’s something I want you to think about. Think about it a LOT before you reply. Ready?

If I have to NOT play the game as it was designed in order to have fun then the game as it was designed is not fun.

From day one I thought the developers stressed that they wanted players to have a lot of flexibility in how they play the game?

Being committed to having the most powerful/ optimal version of everything you do in the game is simply one of a multitude of ways to play the game. To commit to one such way via builds or “metas” is contrary to that end.

I get that some people feel like discovering the most powerful ways to build a character are “winning”, but that seems to be just one of the many ways the designers intended for the game to be experienced.

The gun play and level designer’s worked on Arm’s Race as a showcase of what they made, and in that mode Guardian Rank and Skills are removed from the equation. The idea was for players to enjoy the gun play as they had designed it. And when it was found that Tediore chucking undermined the way they intended the experience, it was nerfed.

On the other end, we got the Fourth skill trees in the Designer’s Cut, which were made by the person who worked on TPS and BL3s Skill Trees. The Orb, Loader, and Iron Cub turned out to be incredibly powerful, and the MNTIS cannon allowed for Zane to use ASE anoints and gain some more sniping skills that only made him more powerful in the end. You could argue that they made the game even easier.

What that represents is that there were contrary approaches to designing game play that leave people with options on either extreme. You can use Bear Fist exclusively, or the Gravity Trap, or Zane with just his Shield, or whatever you like. The idea was to allow any approach to be viable (not necessarily optimal) with a little practice.

Playing the game in TVHM, sans Guardian Rank, with off-meta builds and gear still allows people to experience the combat loop of the game in different ways, and that’s just as reasonable as playing at Mayhem 10 with the worst modifiers and the most powerful Moze build on record.


I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, just wanted to point out that the nerf to Tediores affected the entire game, not just Arms Race. That part of the decision limited the effectiveness of Tediores in general in the main game and was not a great call IMO, regardless of whether it benefited Arms Race. There are still some Tediores that are fine in the main game like the Needle Gun and Dark Army, but regular purple Tediores are kinda meh now unless you shoot the whole mag first. And the damage of many of those Tediores is primarily in the chuck, rather than in the shooting. Which isn’t the worst thing ever, but it does limit the ability to spam Tediore chucks, and that was a kinda cool playstyle.


I’m with you on that. It’s a clear example of the intentions of the developers and how players find a way to upend them. Like it or not, they made it clear that they didn’t want people steamrolling the new DLC they’d just put out. It’s ironic that their own chosen stream team showcased that strategy.

I imagine it’s like seeing someone have more fun with the box a gift came in than the gift itself. You marvel at the imagination, but can’t help but feel a little bit defeated.

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This is wrong. Mayhem automatically flips the true switch. So if you’re in Mayhem, you’re in True Mayhem.

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@sammantixbb Sam out of nowhere! Long time no see. Hope you’re well.


Just saw this topic in my email, and since I made Iron Bear a monster before it was possible, I related a lot to the post, then saw something I could chime in on!

I’m pretty okay. Life’s crazy the past two years. Wait. Bl3 has been out almost 2…oi. Time is bad. I’m gonna go back to bed.

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@sammantixbb Yeah, it’s crazy that BL3 has been out for almost 2.5 years now. Games seem to age fast now, I kinda felt like BL2 was still going fairly strong 2.5 years in, but my sense of time might be a little off there. It was almost 10 years ago, yikes.

Anyway, good to hear from you!

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well, there’s no one stopping you from only using white guns with no nades, artefacts…etc. to make things more “fun” for yourself.
Arms race is kind of building from scratch mode if you may, freeing you from the OP gear that you acquired (then again, are you a masochist? why else would you farm / carry guns that makes things “unfun” for you?)

And with you reply, I guess you don’t mind using white weapons, because it literally still let you use all you ingame-skills and leet-player-expertise, no hands tied at all.

And no, I do not find artificially limiting myself to be fun. If I know I can knock you out with one punch then tying one hand behind my back doesn’t make the fight any more interesting.

You got it backward, using your analogy, using anything say legendary is actually artificially enhancing your abilities, while using only white guns is where you can test your mad player skills.

Besides, you’ve nailed down that’s (the OP gears) “precisely” what killed this game for you, seemed rather silly that you cannot think of such a simple solution with your seemingly capable intellect.

how does your tiny brain not understand that we do not want to self nerf to optimum level, the reason we are playing this game is because we wanted to play gearbox’s design, the way you make it sound is that everyone should develop the game for themselves.

how about instead of pressuring gearbox into buffing everything to the level of senslesness next time you stop crying about couple of nerfs to outlier gear and everyone will get a better game? how about that. there is much more than “gear” that is broken in bl3 it is skills it is gr it is anoints and ain’t nobody wants to deal with it by "oh just don’t use it oh just do not spec into it oh just do not enable mayhem. get otta here punk

I didn’t read anything else you said, but this. And this quote above is why I didn’t read what you wrote in response to me. :roll_eyes:

Interesting, another masochist coming out of the closet? I guess you are friend with moustangman to share a similar value and replying the reply that was a direct response to his comments.

how about instead of pressuring gearbox into buffing everything to the level of senslesness next time you stop crying about couple of nerfs to outlier gear and everyone will get a better game?

Who’s crying? ah right, you are. Which is more weird that you are complaining about crying.

there is much more than “gear” that is broken in bl3 it is skills it is gr it is anoints and ain’t nobody wants to deal with it by "oh just don’t use it oh just do not spec into it oh just do not enable mayhem. get otta here punk

I guess the only reply to not use something you don’t like is um… ad hominem comment that doesn’t even make sense.
If you don’t like to kill robots, stay away from these areas, if you don’t like OP gears, stop using them?
If you don’t like the Tyreen fight, stop keep going back…etc…etc…

But your solution is, “OMG there is robots in game, Change them you mofo! I hate it but can’t help to keep going back to kill em’. Gotta get these otta here you punks, OMG OMG the agony bring forth by robot deaths! OMG OMG OMG”. like eh?

Oh, and for the record; I hope you understand that killing robot is just an arbitrary picked hypothetical example, really no idea if you like killing robot or not. Feel free to sub in anything you dislike, e.g.: OP weapons, “broken skills”, “anoints” that ain’t nobody wants to deal with.

Common sense is so rare that it’s like a super power these days?

you really think you made sense here? :smiley:

this is just a simple debate on what style of game one would prefer. you are advocating for self nerfing for making endgame difficulty real difficult i am advocating for not having game and gear play for yourself. there is no arguing that can come to any sufficient middle ground that is however first time i have heard someone think i have no common sense kinda speaks volumes about you tbh.


Is this the best rebuttal you can muster?

this is just a simple debate on what style of game one would prefer.

So what you really want to debate is opinions? Ok. You understand what an opinion is, right?

you are advocating for self nerfing for making endgame difficulty real difficult i am advocating for not having game and gear play for yourself

… no i’m telling you if there’s something you don’t like, don’t do it.
Again, common sense, yet it escaped you for god knows how long.

first time i have heard someone think i have no common sense kinda speaks volumes about you tbh.

So, no one wants to tell you the truth? :smiley:
Yes I am quite straight and honest on these things. Although I thought that’s pretty much self-evident, not sure why you sounded like you’ve just discovered cold fusion.

The reason why arguments like that don’t work for the game in general is:
When Gearbox puts in gear, skills etc that boost the damage ceiling of some Vault Hunters way above others (looking at Moze), that new damage ceiling is the benchmark for future additions to the game. See Guardian Takedown on launch day. Same goes for Mayhem 2.0

It is absolutely fine if Gearbox wants to create different power levels between VHs (although they never tell you that when you start a new Borderlands). But they should take care of the difference in power levels of VHs so they are a little closer than they are now.

Moze does not need a single piece of gear to steamroll anything in the game with her Iron Bear. If you add even the easiest gear, it can become boring for people. Refer to the OP for that.

To advocate to “not do what one does not like” is a bit strange since the BL3 started out in another direction and Gbx changed that direction a couple of times.


I kind of understand where the OP is coming from. When I perfected my first Zane build, I could snowplow any of the game’s content. Once I did that, I realized I had a choice to make:

  1. Stop playing, because I had “beat” the game. Or
  2. Find a way to challenge myself with different builds.

I ultimately chose option 2, and I’ve enjoyed myself ever since. I pick a theme and a character and try to get them to the same OP level as my original Zane (affectionately known as Skullozania).

Vladoff only Moze with bottomless mags? OP and crazy fun to walk through a level with the fire button taped down.

Flak using only Cartel gear? A lot of fun, can handle most content, but struggles against raid bosses. Still working on this one. :slight_smile:

Cryo only Zane? Went through a few iterations trying to get this one to work. Ultimately had to mix in a second element. Annointed enemies can’t be frozen. :frowning:

You could call it artificially limiting myself, sure. But considering I’ve found new OP characters and had lots of fun doing it, I’d say that I made the right choice.

Ultimately, each player has to find a way to have fun with the playground Gearbox sold us. I think I got my money’s worth!