I’m seeing some weapons that are just being plain outperformed in M4 now that we kinda have to do sustained damage to an enemy. Grenades in general aren’t doing so well either imo. Like, I’m not sure if the piss grenade should be the top grenade in the game because it debuffs lol. Torgue Assault Rifles are doing terrible for instance(They need full auto back guys).
It’s a delicate situation to be sure since the developers want things balanced for Mayhem Mode 3 to I assume.
I don’t think all weapons should scale well to M4. In fact most shouldn’t. Any weapon that scales well to M4 would be seriously OP in the game at normal levels.
You have to remember, people don’t have access to Mayhem levels at all until they complete the game. If they’re getting M4 quality weapons in the main game with no Mayhem at all they would just melt everything in their way without even trying. M4 is an elite level that very few people will actually play on for any extended period of time, it’s perfectly acceptable to have a small pool of elite weapons that work well for it when most weapons don’t.
Scaling is important. If everything is scaled to the hardest the game can be then it will all be seriously overpowered and not much fun for everyone playing at lower levels. Just imagine a first time player running through the game in Normal mode with an anointed Maggie and anointed fire Lyuda. Where would the challenge be?
So like, why wouldn’t I just use M4 weapons in M3 for easy mode? I agree in premise to what you are saying. But in practice, im not sure if that’s the greatest of ideas from a build diversity standpoint.
In bl2 we had op level weapons to fight op level enemies. There’s no such system in bl3. So we’re s.o.l.
Scaling to M4 should be more about the anoints and skill build choices rather then one weapon being objectively better then the rest.
Right now the list of weapons people are using in M4 is quite short especially when it comes to content like Takedown.
I find that to be getting stale fast.
The new coms was another good step in the right direction when it comes to scaling for higher modes.
I’m not following you because I’ve been using a wide variety of guns in M4 and they are working fine.
Wide variety? Like what # of weapons out of the 100’s of available legendaries are working ‘good’ not just ‘fine’? When I ask this I’m specifically thinking about harder content. For example, pretty much anything works in Athenas but not quite so much in Anvil.
Follow up question. How many weapons can you take to beat takedown without using the staples almost everyone is using on every char atm. Specifically, maggie, brainstormer, reclusion, cutsmans.
For hard content of course I go to the good stuff but for everything else most things work well enough. I’ve gone through a ton of guns on my mules and most are fine for general mobbing. Some require specific setups, for example terror ammo regen is the ONLY way I can make the Alchemist work. For others exploiting ASE or clone swapping turn them from crap to effective. But I kinda think that’s the point when it comes to M4.
It just occurred to me that maybe I should be trying zippy zoom Zane w/ some of the weaker guns. Hmm … that might be a thing.
That’s where we disagree then I suppose (as well as the OP and the person you quoted).
I feel like we should have a long list of weapons that work well. And anoints/class mods/artifact/skill build/playstyle should be the deciding factors on whether it works in hard content.
Otherwise at the end of the day, 100’s of once great items collect dust for anyone who prefers to constantly take on the biggest challenges rather then steamroll already easy content that you can do with any choices already. It is also limiting build diversity when only a short list of weapons work good in the harder content. I don’t like that at all.
Some weapons are just going to out preform others in higher difficulties do to builds and play style. I remember in destiny 2 the raids became scripted activities. I’ve seen and use plenty of variety in the takedown, with the exception of Amara.
Some weapon and archetypes do need improvement like torgue rifles.
In a perfect world where GBX had a handle on every aspect of their game that makes perfect sense. But in the “real” world where they are figuring this sh*t out as they go along we gotta roll with punches and make the best of what they’ve made because they were explicit in saying bring your best builds and gear, not just into the raid but into M4 itself. So that tells me that not everything is going make the cut and I’m okay with that because M4 is not the only mode available.
Which is open for interpretation in that wording. How can you be sure that means ‘the short list of viable guns’ and not, your best anoints, your new m4 only drop class mods, your best skill build setups?
Kinda like the [insert religious sacred book here] in that way, yeah?
If they made weapons scale to m4 that means they would be ok with the current state of m4 which, as most of us already agree, is terrible. Id rather they just fix mayhem modes and get it right instead of making weapons work better in an already broken system.
Why wouldn’t you use M4 weapons in Normal Easy mode if you had them. Just imagine how entertaining that would be, being God and nothing lasts more than 1 shot. Maybe a boss does once in a while, maybe.
Trying to scale all weapons to do the same thing reduces diversity in effect. What are you going to do about the slow fire rate, high damage weapons? Make them shoot faster and reduce the damage so they’re just like the other weapons? How are you going to make a Jakob’s sniper rifle with 4 rounds in the magazine do the same DPS as a Lyuda?
The only way you could scale such a diverse array of weapons to all do basically the same DPS so they are all just as good as each other in M4 is to get rid of the diversity. No more Jakobs sniper rifles, they are too slow and have too small of magazines. Every sniper has to match the Lyuda so either make it the same or cut it. Same with pistols, everything has to match the Maggie. And so on.
In the end you’ll create the exact problem you’re complaining about, a lack of diversity. M4 isn’t meant to be beaten with any weapon and any build you want, it’s intended to be the most difficult level that only the players who really understand how to put skills, items, and weapons together to create a specialized build should be able to beat easily if at all.
If you want every weapon to be able to beat the hardest level the game has to offer then there’s an easy way to do that. Get rid of all Mayhem levels and just have NVHM and TVHM. Problem solved.
That is not actually factual. M4 is where they wanted it when they launched it**. Whether that’s true now I don’t know.
It’s a long read but the evidence for the previous statement is below.
** Amara's new com in need of adjustment? Fakegrasping need fixed among other things?
I don’t want them all to do the same thing as each other. I want more of them to be viable in M4 or places like Takedown.
In M3 there is a very long list of weapons you can use and they don’t all do the same things as each other. In M4 the list is shortened significantly. That’s all I’m saying.
I don’t know what the exact answer is. Maybe we just need more new weapons. Which some are coming in the DLC I know of. If I knew the specific answer I would say it, but all I see is what I consider to be a problem.
Right now all VH are pretty much using the same stuff as each other in M4. Like everyone uses the Maggie, everyone uses the Brainstormer and/or Custman, etc. Doesn’t matter which VH you are playing the short list of great weapons trumps every other decision in the game. I personally am not a fan of that.
Which means they all have to do the same DPS. They may achieve that in different ways, but in the end they would all have to do the same DPS.
It’s all about how much damage per second you can do. So any weapon that shoots too slow, maybe does massive damage in one critical hit but is lacking otherwise (Such as the Monocle) would have to be removed from the game. There’s no way to make it do the same DPS in mobbing as the other weapons. It’s a 6 shot sniper rifle, it’s just never going to have the ability to take on an M4 mob. So, remove it and all weapons like it. That’s basically what you’re really saying.
The weapons that aren’t viable for M4 are that way because of diversity. The only way to make more work in M4 is to reduce the diversity and make them all do the same damage.
They don’t all have to do the same damage. Clearly underperforming weapons should just be made slightly more viable imo. If you only have some viable weapons then every other weapon that is not viable is just fluff. Like I keep saying I think Torgue rifles should be full auto again. Some weapons need higher base damage.
I appreciate what you are saying. I just don’t think their should be weak obsolete legendarias. I don’t want a bunch of cutsmans.