What Are We Going To Do About Weapons That Don't Scale Well To Mayhem 4

LOL – the Torgue Laser-sploder AR is one of the best guns I was ever gifted. Have it in shock & it’s replaced my shock Rowan Call for shield stripping.

In general, I agree, though. Wish more of the weapons were M4 viable. For instance, Torgue pistols – would love to use them more but need the slots for clunky, gimmicky Maliwan & Hyperion guns.

The laser-sploder AR is my favorite weapon in the game.PERIOD. And look at that, it has full auto. which kind of proves my point.

edit: I will say that it’s fallen off a bit in M4. Wish it had never gotten the needless nerf

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You have to stack damage bonuses for Mayhem 4. In Mayhem 3 you could squeeze by because sometimes the modifiers might give you a massive passive damage boost.

I think that’s inevitable because we are dealing with GBX. Remember what happened with enemy health regen in OP levels and the Gub? Where the Gub literally couldn’t keep up with enemy health regen. In other words, you would run out of bullets and the enemy would still have full health!:laughing:

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I think you’re right, it will be inevitable to some extent, just because it will be difficult to balance every possible gun. Still, buffing weaker guns would definitely help build variety.

I agree and disagree. I don’t think every weapon should be a cutsman. But I think the developers made a mistake when they started legendary balancing around the always inconsistent MM3. I LOVE MM4. I refuse to go back to MM3 for any reason. But It just sucks that I had to add a cutsman to my loadout, and my beloved torgue assault rifles are basically trash. Bl2 torgue assults rifles were my fav guns in the game thanks to their full auto.

and yes if you think this thread is a slick way for me to bring this old thread back to prominence you are 25% correct


So that quote is clearly I joke but underneath that joke is a truth that most of us are forgetting and I’ll tell you what it is after this quote because it also addresses what’s being said below:

The guns is this game, including legendaries, are procedurally generated. In other words, balancing is not simple because you can’t actually balance a gun because a gun isn’t simply a gun in a Borderlands game. What they really are are a collection of parts. And since the system is combining the parts to produce the gun balance is REALLY hard!

For example, let’s say they increase the base damage bonus on a gun stock. In a Jackobs gun that stock may make the Monocle a better gun but then that stock shows up on a Vladof and suddenly we have a broken OP monster because that stock’s base damage increase goes nuts when it interacts with Vladof’s high mag size and insane fire rate.

Obviously, not every gun (or even every legendary) is going to be viable on M4. But I agree that it’d be nice to have more variety in the guns that work well.

One step in the right direction would be to roll back many of the nerfs Gearbox made to legendaries when M3 was the highest difficulty mode. For instance, my guess is that the Crossroad would become a very solid M4 gun if the nerfs to its accuracy and projectile count were reversed.


I think the collection of parts design build is a facade for marketing purposes. or at least over emphasized. Otherwise it would have been hard for the devs to nerf individual legendary weapons like they love doing without nerfing the entire manufacturer. I think base damage isn’t tied to parts. Parts influence things like reload times, sticky damage, fire rate and etc. Base Damage is specific to the gun itself, while some parts can influence it.

But again, this is just a theory. A GAME THEORY.

edit: wait, we might have just agreed with eachother

In my opinion, each of the Mayhem levels should just have the possibility of giving guns better weapon parts. So ultimately Mayhem 3 guns would have the possibility of higher stats than the same gun in Mayhem 2 and likewise Mayhem 4 would have the best possibility to weapon part rolls. Now the weapon parts wouldn’t make it considerably better than lower level Mayhem weapons, but it would give reason to keep farming for new weapons and not be stuck to the same loadouts, while making it so that more people can progress to having the ability to tackle Mayhem 4 more comfortably.

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If I remember correctly most of the nerfs they have done for specific legendaries were actual bug fixes. For example with the Lyuda the initial projectile stuck around after the split and did full damage. And in the case of the hex grenades the beams were doing damage instead of simply applying elemental effects. Those are the two I remember off the top of my head but I can go look the others up if you are unconvinced.

I think that’s a GREAT idea! :+1:

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Torgue Stickies? The LaserSploder? Crossroads? The Fire storm grenade? Alot of Jakobs pistols?( I think they were rebuffed later maybe?) Kings/Queens Call? Sniper Guns in general i think? They’ve buffed and nerfed base damage before

So far in BL3 they have displayed that they can both nerf and buff specific weapons, specific manufacturers, and specific weapon types.

Examples: Maggie-buff, Flakker-nerf(well I call this one adjust because it nerfed and buffed aspects of it). Maliwan manufacturer buff. Sniper weapon type buff.

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I’m not disagreeing that they can buff base damage but buffing base damage isn’t necessarily going to produce balanced guns because based on parts, the interactions with base damage will have an effect and can produce outliers. For example (and this is an out there example to make the point :grin:), a general buff to base damage to Jakobs weapon could potentially make the Unforgiven the most powerful gun in the game because of it’s high base crit bonus plus procedurally generated parts that give it even more crit bonus and coms that increase crit bonus and anointments that increase crit bonus and skills that increase crit bonus, etc.

For some legendaries higher base damage is the unique effect.

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Can we name an underperfoming gun that would be OP is we buffed base damage slightly to be viable? I wasn’t aware that the Trick Unforgiven was underperforming.

I’m saying ALOT of legendaries could be fixed with a mere 25% increase. And they still wouldn’t be competing with the cutsman.

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not sure why I’m fighting so hard. Because I have no horse in this race. I make theme builds. I don’t max min. Hell if Torgue ARs got their full auto back, I’d go back to my gutter of mediocrity and be happy.

Binary Westergun. That gun got buffed before M4 and it went from trash to great in M3. A 25% buff stacked with anointments (e.g., 100% ASE), coms, skills, and artifacts can easily make it OP in M3 and lower especially if the player rolls positive modifiers.

I want to be perfectly clear about something. I’m NOT saying things shouldn’t be buffed. I’m simply pointing out that buffing damage DOES NOT EQUAL balance. That’s it! Nothing more, nothing less. :grin: