What are you worried about in BL3?

i agree i hate feeling like i wasted character skill points, i love playing with my friends but skill trees around the idea, is not as good, but haveing more options is nice. that said i feel an entier skill tree on co op play was nice but not optional. i feel like gearbox could have done it better with weapons or gear that are just better when more people are around.

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I’m a little worried about Zane at this point. I’m personally not a fan of pet classes, so FL4K and Moze don’t really interest me as much, so its always been Zane and Amara for me. Amara looks quite neat (if a step backward from fellow elementals Krieg and Athena). Zane conceptually is definitely the most interesting, and I love the idea of a strategic killskill class, the doppelganger swap, and 2 action skills. However, he seems to be bogged down by several failings the class designers really should have learnt from previous games by now.

First, Zane’s damage numbers seem awfully restrained. I mean I get his Killskills can stack and he can buff them with dat capstone. But even then, at 2 stacks, his gun damage kill skill is still weaker than Onslaught and his fire rate than Metal Storm (Axton’s sort of the baseline cos his gun DPS is the lowest in TPS/BL2). It just doesn’t seem particularly rewarding to engage in that specific playstyle. Similarly, his barrier skills give meager bonuses which makes adjusting your way of playing just not worth it. In the Borderlands franchise, generally skills which force you to play in certain ways (like Krieg’s Bloodlust/Hellborn, Athena’s Maelstrom, Zer0 in general) reward you. Those skills that force you to do that but are too weak (Incentives, All I need is One, BlW) are generally ignored. Right now Zane has all these interesting skills and playstyles, but the numbers just don’t make sense.

Secondly, he seems to have too many survival skills revolving around his health and shield. If there’s anything we learnt from class design in BL2 and TPS its that 1 big survivability skill always trumps 10 weaker ones combined. Think of how Sustenance + Elated + Ward + Recompense =/= Sweet Release. Or how all of Axton’s numerous survival skills just can’t trump Life Tap or Thrill of the Kill. I mean its okay, necessary in fact to have a few of these smaller survivability skills - not all skills should be god-tier. But so many just seems odd when Zane already has a few really powerful survivability skills (the Life steal ones, his barrier). And the game kinda forces you to waste those skillpoints because Calm, Cool, Collected looks pretty indispensible at this point.

I mean of course, I could be totally wrong and Zane could really subvert all these expectations at release. But right now I am feeling trepidation towards the remaining 2 classes (and any DLC ones), and I really hope Gearbox does properly test this game, not just in Normal and TVHM, but in MVHM too.

I have these worries as well but we just have no idea about the scaling and enemy balance in BL3. I noticed on Amara as well, not just Zane, that bonuses you get from various skills are a fraction of what similar skills did in previous games.

I can only assume this is no accident, and at least some testing and balancing happened to arrive at these conspicuously low numbers.

I did like the bonkers stuff we got, especially in TPS. +28% melee damage is just not as exciting as Krieg’s +1000% or so… but who knows, perhaps it is exactly those crazy numbers that make the game hard to balance.
If more restrained bonuses are the price we pay for “UVHM” (whatever its equivalent will be) not being broken, I’m totally fine with it (althought UVHM was decent in TPS).

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Zane looks pretty cool to me. I think we have to consider that there’s mechanics in his skills trees that aren’t comparable to previous games, and that we won’t understand till we see them in action.

I mean look at the bottom of the Double Agent tree. You’re literally giving your clone a copy of your gun! We have absolutely no idea what that means. Does he aim for crits? Would he be able to snipe for you? Or tediore chuck? Could you summon him with one weapon and swap to another one so he can handle shields or freeze enemies? It’s uncharted territory. Boom Enhance can give your clone up to +33% gun damage, +51% max health, +51% fire rate, and +36% reload speed for the cost of 3 grenades, which you can get back through Pocket Full of Grenades anyway. That sounds super strong to me but we’ll have to see

The barrier capstone is just as hard to imagine. Distributed Denial takes the effects off your shields and applies them to your barrier and nearby allies. I have no idea what that would mean on some of the shield gimmicks (especially when roid and nova shields trigger on depletion) and it’s possible that it’s useful offensively as well as defensively. It’s also worth pointing out “effects,” plural, in the description of the skill, because I noticed at least one higher rarity shield with more than one gimmick.

There’s also Violent Momentum. In the description 5/5 points says it gives you “30% gun damage at regular walk speed,” but to me that leaves it unclear how much further increasing your movement speed will take the bonus.

Then there’s the possibility of kill skills stacking. I know I saw Donnybrook with a “x2” next to it, and again that’s not a mechanic we’ve seen in previous games.

Then there’s cryo. We know Zane has a couple cryo-related skills but it’s hard to tell whether cryo simply has an effect on enemy’s behavior (making them frozen/slowed) or whether it will increase specific sources of damage like it did in TPS.

So I’m not really sure how you can evaluate the characters we’ve seen without more information. There’s just so much going on and to me Borderlands is all about synergies which you can only discover when you start to understand all the moving parts.

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I love the goofiness as well. The cell-shaded graphics work very well with the cartoony humor. This series has never been about realism so I say bring on the weird and goofy!

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You’re judging Zane’s skill damage output based on the balancing from the previous games. From what we’ve seen so far, it’s safe to say the game has been completely rebalanced. Sure, those skills might seem weak for BL2 standards, but we don’t know if that’s actually the case in BL3. I really doubt it will be the case.

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Been mentioned tens of dozens of times, but it can never been stated enough. Microtransactions. Even cosmetic ones can be annoying. Sure, pay to win isn’t much of a thing in PvE, but having everything cool locked behind a $5-50 pay-wall is asinine. Warframe, Dauntless, Smite, etc. Decent games, but the fact that you either need to play religiously for weeks, login daily (for “rewards”), or simply purchase “special currency/tokens” to gain access to the only aesthetically pleasing things in the game (or seasonal ■■■■) agitates me. It’s not a huge deal at the end of the day (especially given BL is 1st person so I’m not constantly seeing my ugly butt), but as a human I tend to enjoy things that look nice.

A couple/few (2-4 per character) purchasable heads/skins similar to BL2 isn’t a bad thing, but when you become a F2P or a mobile game… that’s when it gets bad.

I can’t speak for the others but I think Warframe does it perfectly. After playing for around just 30ish hours you can have all the gear needed to go farming for arcanes, prime frames, etc to make a lot of plat on the in-game trading platform. Use that to buy all the cool cosmetics.

I’ve never seen anyone else rally against “playing religiously for weeks” to get cosmetics…
How many hours have you put into the Borderlands series? Since most of the people on this forum are die-hard B-Lands fans I’d venture to guess you’ve put at least a few hundred hours into BL2. If Gearbox does allow cosmetic unlocks for doing things in-game similar to Warframe I would guess that you would have all of them unlocked after a few hundred hours (not true with WF but it’s an MMO and a much larger game and would take at least 2k hours to reach that 100% inventory status unless you’re blessed with very rich parents or a cushy job).

TLDR; We love playing games and to get rewarded with aesthetically pleasing in-game equipment by just playing more makes PERFECT sense.

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That’s just it, I don’t want to play for as many hundreds of hours as I have to unlock a cosmetic. I want to play because I enjoy the game not because my goal is that cool looking hat or the ability to dye a shirt black. I’ve played BL2 for a little over 2k hours (lol) at this point and it wasn’t because I could grind for the one hairstyle I think looks cool for Axton. It was the love of the game. I just don’t want to feel like I’m playing a F2P.

I don’t mind advancing through the story and completing a side quest to unlock a hairstyle. What I do mind is needing to play for two months, accumulate special items, haggle on sell prices with other people, finally get enough of that “special currency” to afford the item only to find it was seasonal and went off the shelves yesterday. That or login daily for 12 weeks to get enough login “rewards” (incentives) to afford the black color dye from the “shop” instead of the off-rust grey that is in the base game. I recognize it may seem a bit nitpicky, but this is how they bypass the “pay to win” model. You don’t pay to win, but if you want that awesome lookin’ kabuki mask then you better be willing to shell out $25 to buy the “Border Pass” for that month.

EDIT: I just hate the idea that a $60 game would have a “cash shop” where you need to buy 80% of the cosmetics the game has with a special currency that is exceedingly/fairly rare (or even nonexistent) in the base game, yet purchasable for real money. It feels like a giant slap in the face. In a F2P game? Sure, whatever. Dev gotta eat. In my AAA “I paid you pricks up front” game that is slated to already gouge me another $20-40 for DLC?.. nah.

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Warframe IMO also has one of the better player cash shops. Though that opinion might be slanted a bit between being one of the founder members of the game when it was still just a beta and dropping one of those 75% or it might have been higher at the time login coupons then dropping $100 into the store and ending up with enough platinum to instant build my entire clan’s dojo, buy a bunch of random stuff in store, and still have a ton left over. So between nearly everything outside of various cosmetics being accessible in game with time investment and getting a mountain of in game currency at a nearly non existent exchange rate… yeah XD

I fear that Krieg and the other Vault Hunters of BL2 will be considered bottom of the barrel to the new batch. I dunno, but I feel like BL2 VHs should be kinda top of the food chain. Also I fear that a portion of the BL2 hunters might be dead or dark side.

Another concern is that I’m afraid that a lot of the guns that were old favorites (Bessie, Dove, Hellfire) will either not be back or will be brought back in a gimped state.

Couldn’t agree less. I adore the VHs from BL2, but I don’t want any one game to have characters made that I purposefully like less than a previous game’s. I already love Amara and Zane being Irish has really helped make me keen on the bloke. The BL2 cast will always have a special place in my heart, but I always want to find myself enjoying/appreciating the new characters in any game I play/ thing I watch/ etc. If I enjoy them more than the old ones, all the better.

I may have misinterpreted what you meant though. If you meant it more like, they’ll be treated as background noise in this game… yea, that would kinda suck. I wouldn’t say the track record is bad though given how integral the BL1 vault hunters were to BL2.

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I don’t want them to be forgotten in the new Era. My feelings are that if the new guys are too much more powerful, it would make the previous batch seem inconsequential. Make their accomplishments seem meaningless. Take Krieg and Salvador for example. Borderline unkillable tanks make exclusively for decimating hordes. There’s also the fact that I would feel hurt if some of these characters received a dishonorable or BS death.

My point is that I feel like the games as a whole have relatively bad power differences in characters between the games themselves. It’s a power fantasy yes, but the difference are quite extreme. Makes past accomplishments seem like nothing.

My secondary point, but one I care more about, is that I feel genuinely good weapons from past games will be completely disregarded. Like the Anti-Materiel rifle in the Bessie. Specifically, and perfectly, made for taking out badasses. Or the absolute buzz saw of the Serpens. We saw what happened to the “Successors” in the Hawk Eye. It was bittersweet. It felt like a callback until every other Jakobs SR surpassed it to a borderline painful degree.

All in all, I just feel like the BL2 hunters might be taking a sideline (either in plot or accomplishment) and old weapons are going to have their memory disrespected. I’m a writer and I make sequels to stories that will likely never see the light of day. To make it perfect in my mind, I feel it necessary to make the succeeding characters better in some regards and worse in others. So that none are truly “Apex Predators”. I hope you understand the point that I made WAY TOO COMPLICATED.

I also want expansions on character back stories. Otherwise, they feel like hollow husks.

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A gentle reminder to all who need it on how to multi-quote/reply on these forums:

Much appreciated!

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Okay, I see your concern. I think there’s a problem with your logic though. You’re comparing characters from written works to character from successive video games. The VG genre is far different from other story mediums. If I’m understanding you correctly, you’d say that characters from BL1 seemed underpowered once introduced as NPC’s in BL2 (in comparison to the BL2 vault hunters).

Two problems with this logic:

  1. In most instances game dev’s never want the player to feel like NPC’s are more powerful than they are because players like their power trips.
  2. Devs always want to improve and add more skills/weapons/etc into their sequels because those things feel like solid improvements from a player perspective. This kind of thing usually doesn’t seem gradual, it’s usually a big leap forward in tech and learning what worked and what didn’t work in their previous game. This doesn’t happen in written works like books. Changes in power are much more subtle and gradual and everyone’s working from the same playing field.

Not at all what I’m saying. See why I said that I over complicated it? My meaning is that the actual gaps between games is odd to me. Call me old fashioned, but I feel weird about it. I wholeheartedly believe that the next generation should be more powerful (that’s just logical, given the fact that successors should have some kind of advantage), but not so much that it makes the previous generations seem like their accomplishments are irrelevant. And games are very much written works too. Much like a book, they require good writing and pacing. Games are pretty much interactive books. Except my favorite game series (Metal Gear Solid) being an interactive movie.

And as I said before, I would be far more bothered if the BL2 Vault Hunters were left to the sidelines in the new group. Like if they just ignored the characters. Example. Say if another sequel to Splinter Cell with a new guy. I want him to be better, but earn that. I would also hope that they just don’t ignore everything Sam did in the past.

Then there’s my baby, the Bessie, being slaughtered by BL2 in the form of Hawk Eye. I swear, I just keep further complicating my statements. As for my earlier point, it’s not like I’m expecting “Hurr durr yallz wek”. That would be idiotic. I guess what I’m saying is that I want growth and progession to feel more natural. I don’t generally like the “I’m you but better” trope.

Ah, gotcha. Ya, that doesn’t bother me much because I always want characters in sequels to feel quite a bit more powerful. If they feel too much on the same playing field then it’s kind of a let down to me. But power doesn’t always mean “mOrE POWER! MUHUHAHAHA!” Sometimes power comes in the form of more choices. That seems to be the route they’re going with this game since we’ll have 3 action skills to choose from instead of just one.

I completely agree with you here. If they’re ignored entirely that would be sad.

Sorry for making that super drawn out. Lol

Maybe what you’re trying to say is “Honor your past but strive to surpass it”?

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