What do you think the final level cap should be for Wonderlands?

Level cap increases have always been part of Borderlands games. If they go up to 52, however, we’ll be able to fill out two trees. Since we’ll have two trees max, I’m not sure we should be able to go that far. What do you think should be the final level cap?

However they do it, I hope we don’t have to farm for our gear seven times.

I am 100% fine with it staying at 40. One full tree and half way down the second. Balanced. As all things should be.

That said, I would not be opposed to level 50. I do not want to be able to max out both skill trees. However, getting 1-2 points into a T5 of the second tree might be nice for certain builds such as Claw-Warden or Spellborn.


I think I’d be happy with that, yeah. They could increase the cap by 5 levels after 6 months and then another 5 after the first year. Simple, done. Then expand characters through hero points and whatever myth ranks end up being.

Each DLC will probably raise the level cap by 3. If Gearbox does this then once you hit Max level after the 4th DLC = level 52, then you can choose all 5 of the other classes and test out their entire skill tree including their capstone skill. The good with this is that you can do end game content with a new multiclass, all other 5 classes, one at a time, without having to repeat the story content again. I guess I would be happy with that.

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40 static, but it could end up being 50. I’d like enough limitation to make meaningful decisions.

If ever they do increase it, I’d be fine without the incremental increases :slight_smile: just drop the whole 10 tbh


as 52 is both capstones, leave at 40.
If an increase dose happen then not over 45

80… or 100… or no cap at all. I want progression in my games. Once there is nothing left to achieve the game ends and it’s time to move on. Give me a Diablo II-esque system that just keeps going.

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Yeah, 100%.

I recognise that it presents issues in scaling and the design needs to think about problems well in advance, so much like previous games we’re unlikely to see it here. But it’d be nice.

This is just another version of OP levels (and Mayhem to a significantly lesser extent). Eventually, you can’t get strong enough to meet the challenges.

Once you hit a specific level, you can no longer invest your skill points. You hit a progression wall. It is hardwired into the game that there are limits to a character’s strength.

I don’t want ever increasing challenge with nothing of note except the enemies having more health and dealing more damage. I want an experience that I will remember for years to come from a game that gave me joy.

I don’t want a game that goes on forever. I want a game that knows when to end.


I don’t care, but they better get to it quickly, because I’m not even considering buying the game until the final level cap is out.

50 tops, I’d say. Echoing the same sentiment of not wanting to be able to capstone both trees, but I wouldn’t mind having a couple more points to throw around for my build combos. 45 would be ideal, imo.

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Someone mentioned in another thread that Killer6 reported that hero and skill points earned per level doubles at Lvl 20

If my math is right…and I suck at math, but I’ll try. You start earning points at Lvl 2, so this means you should have 19 points at Lvl 20. Then another 50 points by the time you hit Lvl 45, for a total of 69

If this really is how it works, I’d be surprised at any cap increases, as thats a lot of points

52 or 55. I think if the level cap is any lower, then I feel the entire point of multiclassing is lost (which is to build on creative synergies between class skills), since a lot of the class defining skills are in the latter half of the skill tree. On the other hand, since we only have 2 skill trees per fatemaker, there is very little need for the level cap to be above 60 since the number of available points is limited anyway.

The way I interpreted it was,

LV.18 - 1 skill point, 1 hero point
19 - 1 skill point, 1 hero point
20 - 2 skill points, 2 hero points
21 - 1 skill point, 1 hero point

And so on. The double points at level 20 is just a little gift for reaching that place.

So the question is, what do the developers do when fans have opposing goals for a specific game? It seems nomatter the approach, somebody’s going to lose out.

The reason why I like the levels is because, at least theoretically, there’s nothing forcing you to keep moving higher. You find a level you’re comfortable with and you stick at that level. You don’t have to keep playing. You can finish with the game ending in TVHM or UVHM or Mayhem 1 or whatever. There’s nothing forcing further engagement.

What BL3 made the mistake of in my opinion, and it kinda snowballed from there, was Mayhem-exclusive weapons. This drove players further up the Mayhem scale; they made the climb necessary. This is when psychologically it became a rush to the top, so to speak, where even less invested players felt the need to get to these breakpoints or risk feeling cheated out of some decent gear.

But likewise, invested players need a reason to climb. It’s a difficult problem, and perhaps moreso than folks often like to give credit for.

Well, this could be translated into player defined level cap. Do you wish to level up? Sure, disable level cap and go wild. Wanna return to specific level cap? Sure! Gear level will adjust to it!

That would be flexible. Play the way you want. :slight_smile:

That’s an interesting way to do it, but you’d have to make caveats (skill points, related progression paths, etc). After which point you’re basically back at something like Mayhem anyway.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s a bad idea. And I was a fan of Mayhem 2.0 to start with, even with its flaws.

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It isn’t just about “letting the player decide when to stop playing” though. It is about creating a balanced experience that encourages replayability. If you could, say, keep leveling up and even eventually gain access to ALL the classes, then what is the point of running through the game again with a different build? Trying something new with some diversity? There is no point. You have everything.

Having limits on what one character can accomplish makes your choices with that character matter. It isn’t just “I’ll grab that next level”. You either get that boost to gun damage or to crit chance.

Moreover, if you want to keep playing THIS is the game to do that, levelcap or not. This game allows you to multiclass. Get to the level cap with your Spellborn? Now try a Spellwarden! Sick of your Melee ClawZerker? Swap over to your Gun Sporeomancer! You don’t need to have unlimited levels with one character. You can just make a new character and play again.

That’s the point of class based games. You need to choose wisely and you can move on to another class once you mastered your favorite. You might even find a new favorite.

Easy. They focus on what will create a dynamic experience that is approachable to a wide audience. “Unlimited levels” + “Ever Increasing, unmeetable challenge” + “stop when you feel like it even though the only thing left is repetitive, same-y labyrinths in endgame” = not that.

Diablo 3 is a great example. You could keep jacking up the challenge, but it didn’t matter. There were eventually 2-3 metas and all they were boiled down to “move fast with massive AoE”. How is that a good experience?

Die not with a whimper, but with a bang.

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Well that did seem to be a boat load of points. HAHAHA

Yeah, that’s fair. But that depends how endgame works (which I’ve only briefly seen a very short advert for, literally today). If you can max everything out, diversity stops mattering, but it depends on the timing. If you have to invest 10x the amount of time to get to that stage, barely anyone but the dedicated players who want that will reach that level.

i.e. the law of diminishing returns applied to progression.

There are definitely ways it could work, and ways in which it couldn’t. My main point was about the tension between different parts of the playerbase and how the developers overcome that. But that’s crossing over to the other thread too.

I dunno, D3 still seems to attract a lot of interest and people are looking forward to D4. I’ve never been into Diablo, the closest I got was the Torchlight series (from the ex-Blizzard North folk).

The thing is “a good experience” is a subjective qualifier. What is good for you isn’t necessarily good for me, and vice versa. If you’re trying to evaluate the design as good based on the resulting metagame, well, again, I don’t know enough to argue about Diablo. But it’s easy to imagine that somebody else might have a different opinion. Nor is saying “like Diablo 3” meaning “exactly like Diablo 3 with all the flaws it may possess”. It was used as a frame of reference (for Wonderlands / BL4 / whatever). A starting point.

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