What do you think the final level cap should be for Wonderlands?

Even “difficulty” can mean different things. I thought this was a useful approach:

  • Mechanical difficulty
  • Punishing difficulty
  • Arcane difficulty
  • Grindable difficulty
  • Difficulty walls

(Also, needing to “double-jump on a horse” - what?!?!) Apparently, some people actually like quick time events?! :blconfused:

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the game doesn’t need any Level cap increases

They need to focus on balance in the game instead of trying to make the player more powerful and ruin all the balance.

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I think, after a good amount of reflection, I would be happy if there was one level cap increase to 45, then later to 50. Then stop. Right now, the points feel pretty sparse when trying to plan builds but I think double capstones would diminish build diversity. The recently announced “Chaos tiers” will hopefully be an easy way to deal with power creep. If things get too easy, just add a few more.

They do need to keep an eye on power creep. In BL2, it became essential to rely on slag later in the game and builds were limited. In BL3, there was a great variety of builds but far too many things were overpowered by the end. I, for one, want them to be confident nerfing things if necessary (Plasma Coil, Re-volter, Moxxi’s Crit, FitSD, etc.).

i kinda would like to see maybe a build totally viable at lets say 50 or something. but maybe have 5 more levels but those next 5 levels would take a Massive amount of Xp to level up. just so theres like a reason to kill things. kind of like in diablo 2 at lvls 90-99 those 9 lvls would take months of grinding just to level up but you’re totally capable of Pvm and Pvp without those levels. i remember just running through and skipping most mobs just to get to the boss in bl2 and 3.

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40 is a good place to start, then maybe 45 or even 50 but that should be max.

At 45 I think you could reduce points in your main tree & basically try every other class at full tree. Would allow a lot of creative builds & reduce having to run multiple characters thru the game. I mean I’ll still do that cause I’m a glutton but I hear most of you don’t like doing that

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There would still be the incentive to run through because each tree has multiple different builds possible through it. The Brr-zerker, for instance, is clearly a cryo/melee kit but then there are also lots of bonuses in the tree which could lead to a close quarters, splash weapons + action skills build. I could make my ice viking with one Brr-zerker and then mix it with Spore Warden or Stabbomancer for a very different kind of build.

Hmmmnnn… piggy-backing on that idea, what about two separate modes? One that has a level cap on experience, skills, etc. and the other that does not? That way, those who define enjoyment by way of level capping and build diversity may have that while those who define enjoyment by way of progression may have that as well. Perhaps two different playstyle goals that are ultimately incompatible should not be forced to coexist in the same gaming instance. The first mode would be inherently restrictive, while the second one would not. I would think this would be easier on the devs to accomplish.

Let’s back up a minute here. Who ever said all players want build diversity or that build diversity was one of the defining characteristics of enjoyability or re-playability for a game? I hate not being able to have all available skills in a given tree. For me, unlocking each tree’s skills that the character has access to is one of the rewards of playing the game. Also, who said anything about eventually gaining access to all the classes (i.e. skill trees)? Level cap and skill cap are two different things.

For Wonderlands, this would translate (for me) into no experience level cap (or some version of a D3-like Paragon system if needed) and being allowed to max out the two skill trees that I choose to play with (and then stop in terms of skill points). Re-playability for me comes from the quality of the missions, the writing, the humor, the storyline, the depth, breadth and variability of content, the immersive environments and similar characteristics that have nothing to do with nor rely upon builds (i.e. role-play versus game-play), as well as a sense of progression (levels, skills, achievements, endgame advancement rewards (i.e. Badass Points, Paragon points, etc.), collectables (trophies, cosmetics, loot in general), easter egg hunts, etc.).

I couldn’t care less about the intricacies of builds, honestly. Never did. I find their existence to create artificial game mechanic restrictions that force my attention away from playing the game and always result in only a handful of viable metas in the end anyways, thus undercutting the whole promise (and I believe fallacy) of the build diversity concept. I hate having to micro-manage some arcane set of mathematical formulas of behind-the-scenes aspects of weapons, armor and skills/abilities. It gets in the way of my gaming experience and becomes an endless cycle of adjustment every time the devs decide to “balance” the game or otherwise add something new to the environment. Playing the game is overshadowed by having to manage the builds. I can’t tell you how many times I fell for the promise of “diversity” in builds, wasting time and effort on what I thought was a cool combination of gear and skills only to have it not work the way it should have or worse, to have the dev team nerf the very things that made the build cool (to me) in the first place all for the sake of “balance”. How is that a good experience?

For Wonderlands, any build diversity I feel I need relating to skills should come from which skill trees I choose, not which skills within a given tree I am restricted from because of some arbitrary skill point cap. If/when I get tired of playing that character, I can start a new one with two different trees and have a different experience. But if the other trees hold no interest for me, I can also start the same character over from scratch and go through all the content again because the content itself is worth repeating and I receive the same enjoyment from a new set of progressions (and from being a tougher badass the next time around because of progression points I earned during the previous iteration).

I get that there are players who live for an infinite combination of builds but honestly, from what I have seen the achievement of such a sustainable environment is as ephemeral and hard to create as is an environment of infinite progression. At some point both environments are subject to the laws of diminishing returns and some form of restrictions in the gaming experience kicks in (i.e. the eventual evolution of a handful of viable metas forcing a constant, disruptive rebalancing for builds and an ever challenging scalability problem regarding progression). Both of these areas of focus (builds vs progression) are aspects of game play and have inherent limits to their viability. This is why I care more about the role play aspects of games (see various postings of mine scattered about on other thread topics) than I do about the game play aspects whenever discussing re-playability. If we really want to have a discussion about creating a balanced, re-playable gaming experience, then I think the topic needs to be framed in terms of balancing game play and role play, not builds versus progression (or other aspects of what I would categorize as game play).

Ultimately it seems to me that the two (game play) goals of build diversity and progression tend to polarize against each other, so trying to debate the merits of either goal with someone who is in the other camp usually devolves fairly quickly. I think it all boils down to player preference, which is why I support the idea of two gaming environments that @KauluMaisas suggested, one with level caps and one without (accomplished by a player-controlled switch or simple loading up of a new mode, or some other mechanism). But please do not assume that all players (Borderlands, Wonderlands or otherwise) prioritize builds in their definition of an enjoyable, re-playable gaming experience.

As for D3, I for one still play it on occasion, as do a fair number of people (fair enough for Blizzard to bother paying a team of techs to maintain the game and come up with new ideas for each season).

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Just enough to reach 1 capstone from the main and 80% of the remaining sub class.

No to two capstones.

I wanna have the ability to save multiple builds and carry them in combat.

So in one room I would activate my damage focus build. On the next room, I will activate my defense focus build.

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That’s fair, but then there would be no point to build-making. If anyone could have every skill there’d be no point to sharing and brainstorming builds in the community. I could just put all my points into a tree and not think about it anymore. A huge aspect of the game would be gone.

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If I take all the skills I want in the Brr-zerker tree, I’ll have 3 points left over for my second class. So many things seem to multiply together or may be important for survivability in a true melee build. The poor Clawbringer side of the character will be very sad :sweat_smile:

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I’m hoping for no level cap raises. Or some way to level up gear if they do raise the cap.

I’ll say a few things. Diablo 3 definitely makes you choose, use these 6 abilities or those 6, for example. That perk. That version of that ability. Use that gear, or not. Use that extracted legendary power or that one. Use that weapon, that armor… etc… Basically, Diablo 3 has build diversity. Great game. It still does many things better in looter games that other games still don’t.

As for borderlands build diversity, oddly enough I think some character classes wouldn’t benefit from enabling all the things in your tree. Especially based on gear and annoints. As an example, I use a lot of “after action skill ends, do more damage of type x”. So I might prioritize shorter action skills vs longer ones. And just on Zane you’ll notice tons of ways to extend your action skill length or reduce the cooldown time. I guess I’m saying it’s hard to escape build diversity and you might clash if you put points into everything.

All that said, sure, I could see perhaps maybe a mode or difficulty option that just says “I’m here for the story”. That has been showing up in a bunch of games recently. I just think it could be weird for multiplayer. Would that person have to be only play with other people running that mode? Probably. Or you’d have super OP people running around in other people’s games.