What I see as the biggest difference between HW1 and HW2 big ship multiplayer

So I’ve been reading all these balance, formations, tactics, and changes threads and I have come to believe there is one point that really illustrates the difference between the way the two original games worked. One thing that really has made a bigger impact in large ship fights.

Attack aspect.

I’m making up this term but let me explain what I mean by it.

In HW1 it mattered which side of a ship you attacked, it you did a head on attack the damage was reduced because the heaviest armor was in the front. The sides, top, and bottom also had decent armor but the damage was more because those sides of a ship had less armor than the direct front. Flanking your opponent made a difference. The back of a ship was the most vulnerable, all things being equal if you got your attack in on the back of the ship it died fast.

In hw2 this wasn’t the case, armor values applied all around the ship, it didn’t matter if you hit it on the top, bottom, sides or front, all damage was the same. Then we have the back, the engines became the new “extra” armor. If you were unlucky enough to attack a ship with an engine subsystem in the back you had to get through it first, and wow did they take less damage on the subsystem. Sure it disabled the ship moving but battles were not in a vacuum and big ships move slooooooow.

It seems to me the paper armor of frigates and destroyers is more due to them no longer having the same attack aspect characteristics, all but the back of the ships have the same level of armor, hell maybe that is why my assault frigate turn away from their targets, they forget they don’t have an engine subsystem and are trying to live longer by using their engine as a shield!

So that is what I think is the one issue that has had the biggest impact on how HW1 and HW2 big ship fights play out. I wonder if the HW1 ships had their original attack aspect armor values if things would play out differently in a fight without changing any of the other weapons values.

I will add that there is a big difference between frigates and BCs/HCs in usefulness in HW:RM though, but again I don’t think it needs addressing until or unless some of the original HW1 characteristics can’t be applied to the HW1 races.

Wrong.

NewShipType[“sideArmourDamage”] = 1.2
NewShipType[“rearArmourDamage”] = 1.2

Directly quoted from HW2C and HWRM .ship files for all ships of frigate class and above.

Aren’t those the same??? (both 1.2)

Yes, as opposed to frontal damage which defaults to 1.0.

What’s more, ships that turned to broadside enemy ships were given stronger side armor. For example, the HW2 Destroyer attacks broadside, so their armor values were set to damage 1.0 for front and side, and only 1.2 for rear attacks.

NewShipType.sideArmourDamage=1
NewShipType.rearArmourDamage=1.2

That said, many HW1 ships have greater armor on their sides and rears…which can be used to explain their lack of upgrades and higher hyperspace costs, actually!

Taidan Heavycruisers (same of Kushan)
NewShipType.sideArmourDamage=1
NewShipType.rearArmourDamage=1

Taidan MissileDestroyer + Taidan Destroyer (same of Kushan)
NewShipType.sideArmourDamage=1
NewShipType.rearArmourDamage=1

Taidan Mothership (has damage reduction armor) (same of Kushan)
NewShipType.frontArmourDamage=0.8
NewShipType.sideArmourDamage=0.85
NewShipType.rearArmourDamage=0.85

Woops, all motherships have the same armor reduction values, no matter the race!

Hmmm, this is another advantage that the HW1 races have over the HW2 races…combined with inherent hyperspace, this could give the HW1 races an edge.

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I Always though the engine subsystem shield stupid, I mean, you are shooting the engine, in theory should be the weakest part of a ship, since there is no armor at all, but the ship takes no damage cuz only the subsystem gets hurt, lol

Seeing as the front of a destroyer IS the side (when it attacks), what is your point? You don’t list all the values so I’m left wondering if you are trying to hide something.

Where are these greater armor values you speak of? What are the effects of upgrades to HW2 ships? I still fail to see the advantage if the ships can’t go toe to toe and survive exactly as long as their direct counterparts. A 1 is not greater armor all around it is equal armor all around, which is exactly my point, they don’t have the armor variances they are supposed to.

The point is that almost all capships take 20% more damage when attacked on the sides or the rear (the 1.2 multiplier). Which proves you wrong.

Maybe if you went ahead and actually looked at the .ship values, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

I guess we will just have to disagree, my games don’t reflect the plain numbers you point out. I’ll stay out of the files though, I have neither the time nor the desire to look at the numbers, more power to you if you do.

Don’t get me wrong, numbers are great, my game experiences though show me they are not the only thing we need to look at to get all the correct answers. And for now, that 20% isn’t apparent in the game at all on HW2 ships vrs HW1 ships.

yes it does matter where the ship gets attacked cause this is in the ship file for capitals and frigates.
NewShipType[“sideArmourDamage”]=1.2;
NewShipType[“rearArmourDamage”]=1.2;

Your point is still valid, taken directly from HW1 tweaks.script:

capitalSideModifiers[TRANS_UP] 1.3 ; vulnerable from above
capitalSideModifiers[TRANS_DOWN] 1.3 ; vulnerable from below
capitalSideModifiers[TRANS_RIGHT] 1.0
capitalSideModifiers[TRANS_LEFT] 1.0
capitalSideModifiers[TRANS_FORWARD] 0.9 ; good armor in front
capitalSideModifiers[TRANS_BACK] 1.7 ; watch out for the engine!

This is used in game for all the ships except the mothership and a few other.

So you have it here: almost twice the damage from the rear, 1.7 vs 0.9, and 45% more above and below.
Plus notice that in this case you can set the values for every direction while in HW2 sides is just one value…

Hi SAAA, for HW2, the top and bottom of ships count as ‘sides’. Hope that clears up things for you. Also, we are talking about the Homeworld Remastered Multiplayer Beta here! It uses the HW2 engine = there is no HW1 tweaks.script. This means Alpha_1’s point IS NOT valid!

And Alpha_1, I’m not hiding anything. In fact, I posted the values directly from the ship files. Meanwhile, your whole topic is based on your subjective opinion…yet you wonder if I am hiding something?

Effectively, some HW1 ships do have greater armor on their sides and rear (when compared to their HW2 counterparts) = they don’t have the 1.2 damage penalty.

Listen, I can see you don’t know how to view ship files. Just ask me what info you want, and I’ll get the data for you. I’m happy to help you out.

Well, the point that HWRM has less flanking damage than HW1Classic had is valid. The point that HWRM doesn’t have flanking damage is not.

Exactly! Thanks matththegeek!

Actually my point is valid, I wasn’t talking about HW:RM, I was specifically talking about HW1 and HW2. What I believe makes the biggest difference in frigate and above fights.

I don’t need nor care to review the data thanks, I would rather play the game than crunch numbers.

I am perfectly capable of going into the ship files or the big if I so desire. I just would rather be spending my time on other things, like playing the game. But if I ever get the desire to have numbers quoted I’ll keep your offer in mind.

It is just funny that practical experience seems to count for nothing in these discussions. As I and others have stated, what we have seen in actual multiplayer games people like to say numbers invalidate. The problem with looking at numbers without the whole equation is that you don’t see the big picture if all you are looking at is the RGB values.

I’ll freely admit I don’t look at the numbers, I’m taking the end result of those numbers and applying them directly in the game, along with all the other little pieces that have an effect on the original numbers.

Probably because of something called “confirmation bias”. You should look it up.

Does anyone have a list of the HW1 values? I’ve never seen 'em.

But from what I’ve seen, the values seem fine.30-45% more damage to sides is significant.

I think it’s just sloppy copy and paste data-work…Much like the corvette behaviour and assault frigate guns and behaviour. It makes no sense for Kushan and Taiidan destroyers to have the same armour strength on their sides as much as their front, they don’t broadside like Vaygr and hiigaran destroyers.

Nah, looks to me like it’s meant to be like that, where the HW1 ships are weaker in a 1v1 head on fight but the HW2 ships take 20% more damage on their sides(and top/bottom) and rear. Their destroyers however broadside, meaning they only take extra damage from their rear. However they take time to get into position meaning they don’t do full damage until they are in broadside mode.

We’ll see if they refine it (good) or revert it (bad as that will make the gameplay flatter) during the upcoming balancing. People just don’t make use of the whole weaker armor thing and that’s a pity, it’s a real skill indicator; fully utilizing the 3D environment.