What The Saboteur Tells Us

Thanks! I always aim for common sense. :wink:

I’m going to ask you to show some data to support your conclusion. Unless you’re a GBX dev, you can’t know what a majority of players are doing, since a vast majority of players are silent and don’t come to the forums to whinge about matchmaking.

Furthermore, as I said in my first post in this thread, developing for PvP and developing for PvE are completely different beasts. PvE players have a lower level of required maintenance (ongoing development for PvE content and balancing is less necessary) but require a significantly larger investment for additional content (PvE maps require way more work than PvP maps).

Until you can actually show some numbers that indicate that a majority of BB’s players are PvPing, you can’t really state with any authority that the devs are just following the majority of players.

Everything the devs have done up to this point groks with exactly what I’ve said: PvP requires a lot more micromanagement (which is what they’ve been doing) and PvE content requires more work (which is why we have to wait longer for new content). The very fact that PvE is getting a new mission (is it before or at the same time?) as PvP is getting a new map/mode means that they aren’t simply ignoring PvE and are, if anything, putting more resources towards developing for PvE (since, as I said, PvE mission requires more than PvP map).

1 Like

…That part doesn’t bug me so much but the knock-back is unfair.
Why unfair? Because the NPC’s do edge detection and the code obviously helps them.
Several characters in that final battle are OP with knock-back.

You can tell that the majority of players are PvP based on the fact that a majority of the changes are PvP related.

If a majority of players were PvE, then they would make more PvE changes.

I’m sure they have dedicated teams, but overall focus seems to be geared toward PvP. Not to mention, PvE changes on the whole likely require client patches and updates which neccesitate a bit of patience on our part.

Once again, you’re making the same fallacious argument. Read what I actually posted to explain why they can have made all of the changes they currently have without casting aside PvE (seriously; it’s as if you think tweaking numbers each week is some monumental undertaking…).

1 Like

[quote=“CharacterIV, post:28, topic:1540215”]See, I disagree. One of the main ways to challenge players, and the best methods to improve their skill, is to do things differently. Force them to find a new way to succeed.

If every mission was solvable with the same basic tactics, now THAT would be a boring game in my opinion.[/quote]
But every mission IS solvable with the same basic tactics. It’s only 1/3 of one mission stands out. Is it a way to challenge players and improve their skills? At the end of 7th mission? And is it enough to make a game not boring?

If it really was their intention, they kinda failed.

Nope.

Well, i donT’ know, for me Saboteur is one of the best map of the campaign… I played it solo many time (all mode) and in coop a few time, never get bored or overwhelmed… Even with Marquis (even if the game told you that it’s make the mission harder); so, you must admit that you talk about a factual situation, but just about your impression.

Totally wrong here. Good game design is based on the simple concept that; EVERY action must be rewarding; more or less depending on the moment/action/objective of the game.

I just wish hardcore PvE players would stop putting the blame on PvP for everything. PvE is still perfectly doable, and it’s damn fine if sometimes people loose to a mission.

No, PvP balancing didn’t break PvE. No, PvP balance pass to legendaries didn’t break PvE. Yes, some characters aren’t supposed to be able to complete a mission solo. Yes, some team composition are bad : it forces people to think and balance the team beforehand. Yes, some missions are badly optimized : as it happens, some PvP maps have issues too.

Level design isn’t that bad : sure, some traps are pretty useless in the Saboteur, but once you know that, you can still focus on 2 super useful thumper and 2 super useful Flash / time traps. Keep the money for spawning reconstructor bots. As much as ISIC is involved in this particular example, well I did Saboteur Advanced with ISIC and his ult pretty much owned the place, so no issues there.
Geoff resists explosive? My, just don’t use an explosive based character. This isn’t Borderlands where you’re pretty much “stuck” to a character and they have to be able to stand their own. I actually love that you have to switch characters for specific missions because they will not be best for the job. Loadouts and team comp are a pretty big part of a lot of games, and I like that’s it’s another little thing they managed to put into BB.

They don’t have to unlink anything or put any emphasis on PvE. It’s fine. It works. It’s doable. It’s beatable. The only thing I keep saying is quite broken is the Challenge system that fails to adapt to the team, number of players, or sometimes spawn enough foes. And it’s not even gamebreaking. And since they adressed the droprates of legendary, well, alle-friking-lujah, it’s now close to perfect !

Battleborn is an hybrid game, a two faced coin. If anything, I’m sad PvE is pratically mandatory for PvP while PvP isn’t completely mandatory for PvE. I’d like something to cross over from PvP to PvE, can’t say what. Not just lore challenges though. Something that would give more incentive to dip a toe in both activity because there is something to be gained for the other, complementary activity. That way the message would be clear : if you don’t want to engage in the other activity, well, your loss, but don’t complain you are missing something.

1 Like

I’m saving my final decision on this until after the first major patch and DLC come out. I’ve been giving GBX the benefit of the doubt because every game has bugs and Hotfixes are generally used to address the stuff that can be more easily changed and reverted if the change is unintentionally for the worse.

I see PvP concerns as simply being more easily tweaked than PvE.

If, after the patch and DLC are released, I see no improvements to the PvE side, then I’ll probably conclude that GBX really isn’t interested in changing the PvE side into what I thought it was going to be and be more careful about selecting my next title.

2 Likes

That’s fun that along much discussed problems the Saboteur is easier when done solo. You have the least amount of mobs and weakest range of their types but defenses are the same. And Marquis is actually very good there, his owls work great to protect Nova from melee scavens.

Not that amazing when you realize you have to pay for new PVE content but new PVP content is free.

You assume, based on no evidence other than update focus, that the devs have cast PvE aside.
I theorise they may have done so based on player numbers.
You believe they only need to make a few “easy” changes and assume these to be a simple undertaking.

Seems like there’s plenty of speculation happening here.

I think we’re having a semantical misunderstanding on “basic tactics.” I mean, at the most basic level, all Defend missions are the same. Just stop them from shooting that thing.

HOW you do it though, that’s where it gets varied. In the final defense on Renegade, the enemy shows up in tiny little clusters and mostly has to run through narrow choke points to get to the objective. That’s VERY different from the last defense in Experiment, for example, where they spawn all over the place and the terrain is wide-open.

In Renegade, you throw AoE at the spawn or choke points and turn it into a bloodbath. In Experiment or Archive, you have to hunt the enemies because they have greater ranged concentration and open lines of fire to the objective.

Saboteur’s final defense is uniquely challenging in that it has both choke point and hunting elements. And the terrain is mostly inimical to you. If you fully ignore the floating Varelsi on the various elevations, they will range you to death. If you over-hunt, a Scaven or two will slip into the core and tear the thing down in 5 seconds. Succeeding in the final defense on Saboteur is all about balancing your action. Ranging out to hit distant, largely stationary targets while also staying on a string to the objective to stop blitzes.

So yes, it is apt in my opinion. It’s the final defend mission in the story, they know you’ve handled a blitz in instances like Renegade, and they know you’ve handled hunting to protect a mobile target from Archive, so as the last challenge they want to see if you can handle doing BOTH at once.

2 Likes

I’ve talked with Jythri during the Early Access Preview about a lot of things. One of them was the Saboteur level and the problems with it. It wasn’t supposed to release as is but some things happened (or more accurately didn’t) behind the scenes and it did release as such. There are some complex issues that need to be worked out. Not something that can be done in a simple patch. They’ve applied some first-aid and that is keeping it alive until they can get it in for some major surgery.

The spawns have to be looked at. The AI has to be looked at (there’s a possible issue with the AI on one of the major enemies where they fire off all of their attacks at once instead of at more random times). It’s not going to be a simple fix. So in the meantime we get to play around with this harder than it’s supposed to be level.

2 Likes

Got my chance to take another crack it tonight, thanks to @Kaleidodemon, @Gulfwulf, and @Elaura. Group composition had Isic, Phoebe, Orendi, and Shayne, with me on Kleese. Great run. Had a couple of touchy moments on the last fight, but had over half health left on the defense point when we finished.

2 Likes

It was fun. Sadly, I still suck with Phoebe.

1 Like

I pretty much disagree with both your analysis and your conclusion of “it’s all OK.”

I believe you made a good effort to describe what defense approaches could be and what GBX probably tried to teach players. But 1) tactics you’ve described are still too basic (too theoretic) to actually help people do this particular stage (last defense in the Saboteur); 2) GBX failed to succeed in this or whatever they wanted to achieve with the design of that particular stage.

There are two key objectives to beat this stage. Highest priority: babysit Nova at all costs so no melee scaven could get close; priority #2: watch out for powerful long range shooters. That’s it, nothing more. Everything else is intuitively clear AND works great at EVERY other defense task in the game no matter how different they may look from research point of view.

To be honest, that’s pretty much what he said, albeit less circumvoluted and less detailled :wink:

I can’t play her either. My son wrecks face with her, though. But we got through it so you must have done fine.

1 Like

The Saboteur is a cake walk man. Now the Experiment is pretty annoying. Why would they let one Objective have the same amount of health throughout multiple rounds of wave based adds and a boss?

My nephew and I played the experiment like 5 times and failed it without losing a single life! All because the feeling objective was destroyed!