What we want for Borderlands 3. A wishlist

(Jakobs Public Relation) #1034

Haha I get it…this is your April fool’s one right?


(The RAbbi) #1035

Believe it or not, I mean it.

Anyone who knows me (online, anyway), knows two things about me and PvP:

  • I don’t care for it, and

  • I suck at it.

That said, I believe a couple things about Borderlands and PvP:

  • It could be balanced enough to be taken seriously by the sweaty PvP crowd, and

  • If you build it, they will come.

Anthem got pushed back, Destiny 2 is struggling, and the crop of battle royale games is getting old. The potential is there.

(Jakobs Public Relation) #1036

Destiny is struggling partly because of PVP, they are too afraid to give any meaningful power fantasy due to what it might do on PVP.

Division suffers from the same issue but it is in a much better position than Destiny. I don’t understand why Borderlands need to be burdened with this. I rather Gearbox put all that energy into endgame progression. I rather they do indirect PVP, leaderboards and seasons like on Diablo 3.

Look at one of the top 10 game on steam for the last 3-4 years, Warframe…they have pvp but nobody really plays it for that. It is a PvE game where the devs are constantly adding stuff. You keep adding content, you keep your player base, you don’t need pvp.

(The RAbbi) #1037

Oh, I’d prefer that PvP not get significantly more attention than it has already (duels, arenas; maybe something special in the way of a ‘dome’…). But I’m mentally bracing for that it very well may happen. And if it does, I wanna be on the record saying that:

  • I like the weird, situationally OP red-text gear we’ve had in past installments, but…

  • That stuff has no place in PvP.

That’s all. Non-red-text gear, purple and blue especially, done as it has been (especially in BL2), would accommodate personalization and creativity just fine without presenting any real game-breakers. And it doesn’t necessarily leave someone farming BNK3R, a couple hundred kills later, still lacking that one piece of gear that became the meta hotness.

Also, bring back grinders.

(LootHunter_twitch) #1038

This indeed. I play Borderlands purely for the PvE play style. If i wanted to play PvP i’d load up CoD, or Titanfall, or some other game that was made for that. Borderlands doesn’t need it and i hope to god they don’t waist their efforts on adding it. Fortnite has been added to that list too.

I was just browing and came across the Tech Demo again, and watching for any scrap of give aways. One thing that caught my eye was these barrels. Just wondering if they are going to add OIL into the equation. I know it’s a tech demo, but they may use some assets in it. How cool would that be if you shot oil with a Fire weapon and started burning those bandits…crispy :wink:

(Jakobs Public Relation) #1039

Consider for a moment what would happen if they did even that. From a software dev point of view, the game needs transparency and integrity on PvP.

  1. Option A: Gearbox requires some sort of always online shift login to play Borderlands, (your save game being hosted on the server and ONLY the server).

  2. Option B: At the very least the Aneras are in their own instance where the match is hosted on a Gearbox dedicated server.

My point is even if red text or what have you is banned, balance is just state of mind until someone finds a memory hack to make a white sniper do 1 billion damage. In this case, do we want Gearbox to spend time and energy banning hackers? Do they invest in server-side infrastructure to pre-counter this? How important is this really to be worth the money and labor?

Before the launch of Borderlands 2, I remember one of the devs saying the PVP arena in Borderlands 1 was pointless because nobody was playing them, so they scrap them for the sequel. Arenas rewarding unique reward for PVP wasn’t an option either since it will force PvP on PvE players in order to acquire those rewards. It was just a no-win situation.

(Ponderer of Ideas and Musings) #1040

Not to say it’s your intent but this statement is slightly misleading. Destiny 2 has suffered from several major issues completely unrelated to PVP. Off the top of my head I can list several having played it myself up until a few months ago; first and foremost a staggering lack of endgame content, piss poor communication and transparency between the developers to the players, scandals involving manipulation of experience points to increase microtransaction revenues, an unimpressive first expansion, and a slew of half-measures attempting to correct their mistakes.

The PVP aspect of Destiny 2 is failing because of a lack of variety in both playlists and diversity of weapons to choose from. The PVP itself is fairly balanced and enjoyable but there’s simply not enough variety to keep it entertaining for a long time.

If Borderlands decides to go the way of PVP, I don’t think it would be an utter disaster as you seem to think it would be, as long as they consider and adapt to the fact the campaign mechanics cannot be copy and pasted into a PVP format. Whether or not that makes it worth it is something only they can decide.

(Jakobs Public Relation) #1041

Hence why I said “partly”

I don’t think its misleading, how much do you think their game design on PvE is influenced by PvP?

  • Why do you think the weapon loadouts is the way it?

  • Why can you only equip one exotic at a time?

  • What about the stupidly long cooldowns?

This company actually has eSports ambitious for Destiny…a loot shooter with eSports…okay.

I haven’t played the first Destiny but almost everyone who played it will say the PvE stuff was far better in the first game. They got lazy and canned PvE options only so their balancing job would be easier, they refuse to separate the PvE and PvP weapon balance up until very recently (too little too late if you ask me).

You cannot have your legs on two boats, you either do PvP really well or you do PvE really well, you can’t have both. Well, at least historically this is something no loot shooter have done well.

Borderlands pride itself being a very casual friendly game, not a lot of gear complexities. You only get a Sheild, a Class Mod and a Relic, and some guns. There are no armor pieces you put together like Diablo, Division, Destiny.

My concern is with the approach to PvP, is that Gearbox is going to take the easy and simple route, do nothing. balance them both the same way (they don’t want the playerbase to overthink it and create two mindset of balance). Gearbox is going to waste a lot of communities’ time with nerf patches due to PvP cheese. Gearbox will need time to figure this out by trial and error, I don’t have patiences for that. I am not waiting 1 year after BL3 release for them to get their mojo together, too many games already do this and it is getting anoying.

No Thanks, I am not signing up for that. Division and Destiny were bad enough with PvP.

(Ponderer of Ideas and Musings) #1042

Hence why I said “slightly”.

I think it’s reasonable to say that anything broken in pvp because of being able to equip two Exotics could also be broken in PVE. That’s not a PVP exclusive problem. My guess is that they did it to balance both PVP and PVE. Same thing with skill and grenade cooldowns. If it’s unbalanced in either it’s unbalanced in both.

I agree that it’s likely that the half-way attempt at PVP would taint if not ruin the game with patches and tweaks that affect both, but I don’t think that gearbox is going to take that risk with their baby. They’re either going to go all in and do it right or excluded altogether. Time will tell.

(Ceramical) #1043

But battle royale is somehow fits for Borderlands universe. You know, some vaulthunters competitions. I don’t like battle royale tendency tho.

(The RAbbi) #1044

Yeah, I’ve played give/take 600 hours of Destiny 2 on PC (I have some free time on my hands, obviously). Less than two of that has been PvP. But that said, I swim in a sea of salt daily in that game.

It’s becoming pretty apparent that you have greater and greater difficulty balancing a game, in which gear is no different between PvE and PvP, the more and more unique gear you have. For instance, consider the good old days of Ghost Recon (yes 2001 Game of the Year, OG Ghost Recon). There were, even after the expansions, like a couple dozen kits to choose from in total (though some popular mods pretty much did away with that limitation). It wasn’t too tough to balance PvE and PvP with the same gear sets, especially in a game where one hit will usually kill. Fast-forward to Destiny, and now there’s a problem. And I think you hit that…

Exotic gear. In Destiny 2 (haven’t played a single match of Crucible in D1, so I can’t say confidently) you can equip one exotic piece of armor and one exotic weapon at any given time. Exotics (for those who aren’t familiar) are the Destiny rough-equivalents of the red-text gear in Borderlands, in that they have the unusual game-changing perks that you can’t get anywhere else. Some (Helm of Saint-14, anything with ‘Aeon’ in its name, etc.) are useless/worthless in both PvE and PvP. Others (Orpheus Rig, for instance) have really no drawback and are all about being OP-as-you-know-what. And they’re allowed in PvP…

So my above point is in consideration of that. Calling Borderlands’ red-text gear the rough analog of Destiny’s exotics, I see where this can make balancing around both PvE and PvP a complete nightmare. To make it worse, unlike Destiny 2, Borderlands doesn’t just throw piles and piles of the high-end gear at you as a participation trophy; you have to grind it and earn it, or get lucky A. F. with a world drop. But mostly, you’ve gotta grind the good stuff. “Where do I get a Norfleet?” That’s one of the saddest questions to answer in Borderlands 2. Because it’s NOT a beginner-friendly answer at all (“Well, get really lucky with Hyperius the Invincible, or get kinda lucky with Vermivorous the Invincilble; those are your legit options.”). Someone who’s along for the PvP ride isn’t going to like that answer. Meanwhile, you can get most non-red-text gear from vendors, it’s all a more common world drop, and there are some easy farms for it (in BL2, anyhow). For instance, if I just gotta have that perfect blue level 50 Blurred Trickster or Breakneck Banshee COM for one of my sirens, I go farm the Mercenary Day train in Gingerton. EZPZ. It’s a pretty simple fight, and not as challenging as even Pyro Pete the (not-so) Invincible (let alone trying to solo farm Voracidous the Invincible for a fire Interfacer). I can get your average neckbearded PvP-and-craft-beer player to do that. Tell him he’s gotta go farm Hyperius for a few hours (at least), and he’s gonna go back to being a dirty Fortnite bush wookie.

All of that is just an academic exercise (if that) on the premise of Borderlands 3 having any significant PvP multiplayer.

Mid-rant TL;DR- Gonna have to leave out the red-text gear if there’s to be any hope of balance in PvP, and that’s actually an easy and fair step to take.

Also, it’s that much more I can imagine needing the excellent Brina Palencia to voice Mad Moxxxi, and really, who doesn’t love her (Brina or Moxxxi, either one)?

Cuz yeah, I can totally see (again, if they went for PvP) doing it as part of a revived Moxxxi’s Underdome kind of thing, in which vault hunters can challenge each other one-on-one or in teams, with the cheering crowds calling your vault hunter’s name when you start dominating (just like in BL1)… Moxxxi’s proven to be excellent at the blow-by-blow color commentary. (Yes, I know Mister Torgue can use innuendo too; interesting opportunity to pick up a loose end from BL2…)

Just stop and imagine it for a minute (and pretend you’re into PvP, as that’s kind of a must for this to work): “Welcome to Mad Moxxxi’s Underdome, brought to you by the Torgue Corporation!” “Get ready for some hot vault-hunter-on-vault-hunter action, sugar!” “YEEAAAHHHHH! THAT VAULT HUNTER IS GONNA BLOW SOME S–T UP!!!” “Oh, that Axton can knock ‘em dead and look soooo good doin’ it.” “HE MUST WORK OUT!” And so on. Imagine it written by someone, anyone, with actual, y’know, TALENT, and not just me. Go nuts. Spectate your friends’ fights. Jump in a themed arena with your favorite teammates. Face hordes of Promethea’s most feared enemies, or even face-off with your fellow vault hunters. One on one, or four on four, you decide! And even special events, like Couples Therapy for Valentine’s Day week, a 2v2 PvP event with special skins/heads awarded to qualifying participants, as well as bonus SHiFT rewards for the top performers on the global leaderboard! And so on…

All of this is stuff that’s well traveled already in the video game world. Thank the MMORPGs, I guess?

But yeah. Purple or lesser quality only, no red-text gear. You still get plenty of the flavor of each brand and type of gear. Vladof ARs are still less-than-accurate, high fire rate. Hyperion sniper rifles are ridiculously accurate, but have the patented Reverse Recoil system and do less single-hit damage than their Jakobs counterparts. Etc.

Even have special events like the “Level Killing Field”, in which competitors’ loadouts are standardized (randomly selected white gear; everyone on either side gets the same kit and is locked out of changing gear during the match). Other special events that focus on going crazy with the action skills (seriously reduced cooldowns), or the opposite, blocking out action skills and melee overrides completely. Etc.

There’s a world of possibilities there. And as purely optional content, with no significant impact on one’s ability to complete the full PvE experience, I have no problem at all with it being included and getting a lot of development attention. Unlike a lot of companies, I trust Gearbox to do it right and well. (Famous last words?)

Anyhow. IF there is a PvP beyond what we have already had in the Borderlands series, I just hope that it will exclude red-text gear, and that it will not introduce any unique-to-PvP gear AT ALL to the game (cosmetics are fine, as are reskins of existing PvE-farmable gear with no other unique properties).


Yes, Most egregiously, a battle Royale leading to a vault. (PvP independent of PvE and free)

Winner of the the battle Royal earns a legendary item for the PvE game/PvP cosmetic, based on rng that the game season dictates

(Ponderer of Ideas and Musings) #1046

I like this idea. Maybe Moxxi can flash the winner too. (Lolz)

I was thinking more like gear for PVP would be completely randomized. No gear from PVE allowed and the devs make PVP specific gear that you can’t take with you; you can only use it in the arena and have to leave it there at the end of the match. When you’re in the arena you’re automatically selected several options to choose from and you have to pick from those and they can be other crap or fairly decent, but throughout the match you can find different and better gear depending upon how well you do. I think this is the best way to go about it so that it’s purely skill-based and not cheesy weapon based.

(Ponderer of Ideas and Musings) #1047

Another thing that I thought of while playing BL2 last night is the idea of being able to quickly sort loot between trash and favorite, without having to go into a menu.


-Hold L3 when standing over an item to favorite it, or R3 to trash it? Seems like such a time saver and it would take hardly any extra effort to make the loot and sell mechanics so much more user friendly.

-An option to turn off and on individual badass stats rather than all on or all off

(Mcore) #1048

"you either do PvP really well or you do PvE really well, you can’t have both. "

The original halo games would like to have a word with you…

I do see your point and have a strong opinion on pvp not being included in borderlands.

But options are good. Options allow for more longevity. So what if…

What if they release bl3 in amazing splender and glory, and then add a pvp focused dlc. With options to restrict players to a certain amount of skills. Imagine for instance you enter finks slaughter dome with an empty back pack, a set amount of cash and no skill points. You go to the vendors and purchase a few weapons, nothing amazing, your opponents and you go to separate starting areas on the map, and the round starts. But you don’t just fight eachother, you fight waves of enemies as well. Last player standing wins, but only if they complete the round.

This… Actually sounds like it could be a lot of fun, but definitely not what I would Spend the majority of my time in the borderlands doing.

Or they could implement a system where when you turn it a mission it would tell the players how they did. Give them a grade based on things like deaths, average dps, items looted, critical hits, enemies killed etc, whoever wins gets to choose the better item.

I would actually prefer this to the other option. Just my thoughts.

Still though. Without its amazing pve borderlands isn’t borderlands.

(Jakobs Public Relation) #1049

The PvP you describe is still PvE, with some indirect PvP with stats and last man standing. That is all fine, as I mention before Diablo’s 3 Season Leaderboard is also a good approach.

Having said that, be careful of what you wish for. The moment they take PvP seriously, the moment we have to consider the real possibility of an always-online system, with cloud only save game and profiles.

Personally, if I had to pick? an SDK for Borderlands 3 would be more valuable than anything PvP.


(Mcore) #1050

I believe they gearbox already has stated they wanted to push to the cloud, not for pvp but so they can do updates easier and more frequently and have in general a bigger game.

Also I want to state that either of the modes that I mentioned I could give or take, but I do not like the idea of sacrificing the pve for anything in a game about pve. Just that I wouldn’t mind if nothing was sacrificed, and that I wish the pvp, if it exists to be both fun and balanced.

(The RAbbi) #1051

There are precedents for that gear concept.

I’ve played one proper MMORPG: WildStar. Mind you, I love it. It has PvE and PvP, though the PvP is pretty much dead now. It’s still a 90% PvE game even if people were playing the PvP stuff regularly.

And it has sorta-separate PvP and PvE gear. Mind you, there are ridiculously many stats to manage. But there’s a separate vendor for PvP gear, and PvP gear has certain PvP-focused stats. It’s generally inferior in PvE, and PvE gear is likewise generally inferior in PvP. But the system is there.

And, bringing it back to Borderlands, you could then have red-text gear and be able to deal with its balance without worrying how it will affect the gear’s viability in PvE.

Assuming we went the Moxxxi’s Underdome route, or something like it, you could place Moxxxi as the vendor of gear and giver of bounties/quests/whatever for the PvP stuff.

I’m thinking the old skool BL1 ERIDIAN weapons could make a comeback as PvP uniques. They were all red-text, had interesting and powerful perks/effects, and were constrained back to sane DPS by time-gating the recharge. They could do ridiculous burst damage when used appropriately, of course, but they’d just be stuck waiting to recharge that much longer.

DAMMIT man, why you gotta make me think about this stuff?

IF there was ever a game I’d look forward to trying PvP in, it’s a Borderlands game.

Also, and this is important, I cannot stand by any PvP at all, until the incredible PvE experience we’ve come to expect is assured. If anything at all in the PvE experience is compromised to accommodate PvP, then that’s a failure in my opinion. I only accept any more formal PvP than already exists, on the condition that it in no way at all, no matter how insignificant it may seem, compromises or sacrifices the PvE game. Borderlands has been a PvE game all along; it’s what got us here, and what has so many streamers still playing BL2 as we approach the game’s SIXTH anniversary.

Also, I’d prioritize my bounty board idea ahead of the PvP stuff, if I were king of the world.

(Mcore) #1052

From what I’ve seen the discussion people are having on the internet about borderlands 3 besides for when it will be released and whether not tiny Tina should be a PC is whether or not pvp will be, or should be a thing.

I think it’s an important topic because since bl2’s release we’ve seen multiple looter shooter games released. And they all include pvp. I haven’t played the division or destiny, but from what I’ve heard and read there’s a lot of either balance issues or issues with poor drops. These games are designed to be played for hours upon hours of and should have a lot of longevity. The problem is is that they get “stale”. In pvp players are pretty much forced to stick to a few different weapons and tactics. This is almost entirely unavoidable. Players will eventually figure out the meta.

Games like league of legends have updates every two weeks that buff and Nerf items, skills and characters. This ensure that the game does not get stale because the meta and other viable tactics are always evolving. However they have a huge team of people to do so, and the game is entirely pvp focused. Battleborn couldn’t keep up in these regards. The market is flooded with games like these and although a great game I think gearbox bit off more than they could chew if they want to make more games.

Is destiny a pvp game or a pve game? It’s both. But is it a good game? Probably. Is it what the fans and bungie hoped for? Probably not. What it has over borderlands is the bungee name, slick production, and pvp. What borderlands has over destiny is (dare I say it… ) heart. Take the humour out, take out the over the top unique weapons, use the original art style from the first borderlands trailer. take out the wubs and add in pvp. And you’ve essentially got destiny.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Some people like there chicken spicy. Others like garlic.

Let’s say for example I frequent this restaurant that has, Imo the best spicy chicken in the world, but it’s all they serve. I can eat spicy chicken all day every day, and I’m happy. But a bunch of places start opening up that have both decent spicy chicken AND garlic chicken. I want to try that garlic chicken, but it’s not as good as the spicy chicken from my restaurant, so when my restraint starts making garlic chicken as well I will be thrilled. The problem is is that now they order less of the ingredients for the spicy chicken, and I go in there one day when I want that and they are all out. My favorite restaurant has lost its identity.

I think that borderlands needs to invest in garlic chicken to stay relevant, but in order to keep its fan base and it’s identity they cannot run out of or change their recipes to much for their delicious world class spicy chicken.

I really like chicken.

(The RAbbi) #1053

You summarized quite well there, and I very much agree. Let the garlic lovers have their garlic, but never stop being the world’s number one spicy chicken spot; the garlic chicken CAN NOT come at any expense to the spicy stuff…