What's with all the hate against premade groups?

Sorry to break this up to you but yes you did. Only having 12 overall kill/assist (2 kills, 7 deaths and only 10 assist) out of the 27 total kills done by your team is low performance. It’s specially true towards a Boldur, Benedict and Ghalt that performed horribly as enemies. I don’t blame you, Kelvin is hard to do great against competent opponents without having full support at your side. You can do all of that and still have a great score. K/D ratio doesn’t determine how good a player is in it’s entirely but it’s a big contributor to it.

WARNING, NO LIFE POST COMING THROUGH!

#Case

And, I’m going to be stupid and show my stats here! :sweat_smile:

  • I’ve excluded the Penta and the multi kills which lead to it as well as another quad and the multi kills which lead up to that as they were earned in Bots battles. There are regular kills, doubles and maybe a triple or two that have not been accounted for, but they’re relatively insignificant I’d argue.

  • I’ve also rounded the ratios to decimals to simply make it easier looking at, they should be rounded up and down accordingly.

  • I never expected to post this, and I realise there are other variables that should’ve been considered such as wins in the respective game modes on each character and time played.

  • I did this 7th of March, meaning they’re slightly off now as I’ve played since but the overall picture remains.

  • Unless I mention anything else, the PvE portions for the characters are relatively similar with around 20-30 PvE sessions with them respectively. Though I do also realise that it’s not a good estimate as it leaves a possible gap of 20 matches between characters and doesn’t specify what difficulties they were played on. It’s the best I can do at the moment as I can’t check my PvE sessions.

I put my stats relatively recently on a spreadsheet to look at my K/D, A/D and W/L with all characters, get an overview to compare my stats in-between them and just simply learn the fundamentals of Excel.
Now, I know you said it’s depending on the match, but I’m going out on a limb here to say that such a claim would also extend to the overall stats of a character if you’re good with that character or not. I take it it’s also based on character, meaning that supports for instance are better judged by their A/D rather than K/D. In the same sense, just a thing like W/L is interesting looking at as well.

##K/D

My top 5 K/Ds now are the following;

  1. Toby - 7,42
  2. Benedict - 6,76
  3. Kelvin - 6,58
  4. Beatrix – 5,83
  5. Orendi – 5,17

My average K/D is 3,59.

Toby’s K/D is somewhat skewered. I pick him for sweaty games and I feel comfortable playing him and is currently one of my most played characters (match-wise, not sure about game time). So, my K/D’s justified with him, no? Not really, because I virtually never touch him outside of Meltdown, or just even Paradise. I almost always go Toby on Paradise but leave him in most other instances. I don’t play him in Face-Off, Capture nor Incursion, though I started playing him a bit more in Incursion before I took my break. Therefore, my skill-level with Toby can’t accurately be determined considering I almost exclusively only play him in not only a specific game mode, but even just one map where I’ve found something which works for me. If I’m moved outside that comfort zone, you can’t expect me to do nearly as well.

Benedict’s K/D is relatively accurate. I used to play quite a lot of capture when Battleborn got released and played Benedict a lot then. One of the reasons I went into Capture was to get character lore done and I’d play all sorts of different characters. But when I found myself in a team which I deemed was going to be wrecked by the opposing team, I ended up choosing Benedict. I could hold my own with him and take shortcuts on Outback for instance. But I’ve also played him a lot in Incursion and Meltdown as well, though I’m likely falling behind on Face-Off matches with him if I recall correctly. I have a relatively even distribution across the base game’s game modes and have actively chosen him for harder teams, so through that it may be accurate. He, like Toby, is also one of my most played characters.

Kelvin’s K/D is ever so slightly skewered in the same sense why Toby’s K/D is skewered, but no to the same extent. I’ve always enjoyed playing Kelvin, but found him somewhat lacklustre and was bad playing him when I started playing him. I primarily played him against low to semi-skilled players when I started to pick him up more as I’m overall not good with melee nor big characters. He’s now my 2nd most played character though and I feel perfectly comfortable playing him, but not in Incursion. I can play him, and have played him in the other game modes (maybe falling behind on Face-Off somewhat), but I actively avoid picking him in Incursion. I do want to play him in Incursion, but it feels dirty as it often derails into CC-chaining which is not something I want to contribute to for the most part.

Beatrix’s K/D is really skewered, but I can’t tell whether it’s for the better or worse. She’s my least played character out of these, and by quite a lot. She’s also the character that has the highest ratio I reckon between PvP and PvE activities. I’ve died 24 times with her in total, and I’m honestly wondering whether I’ve even died more than 10 times with her in PvP specifically. Therefore, the stats are significantly more skewered than the others because of the PvE factor, but the stats are also way too small to make solid conclusions of my skill level with her.

Orendi’s K/D is relatively accurate. I’ve typically picked her for sweaty games as she’s always been one of my go-to characters when you need to try and carry. I quite early in the game marked Orendi as one of my “sweaty” characters, i.e. not piking her for low levels and almost exclusively used her for more difficult games.

##A/D

My top 5 A/Ds now are;

  1. Beatrix – 13,50
  2. Reyna – 11,48
  3. Ambra – 9,37
    4a. Kelvin – 7.55
    4b. Miko – 7.55

My average A/D is 4,50.

Beatrix’s A/D is really skewered for the same reasons I mentioned above.

Reyna’s A/D is relatively skewered. I’ve played with her quite a lot and have done so in more competitive matches. It’s primarily been in Incursion though with few matches in the other game modes if I recall correctly. Beyond that, there’s nothing else to say really about Reyna here.

Ambra’s A/D is relatively accurate as I’ve typically picked her for sweatier games across all the game modes except Face-Off. Therefore, Ambra’s A/D may very well be the most accurate representation of my skill with any one of these characters.

Kelvin’s A/D is ever so slightly skewered for the same reasons I mentioned above.

Miko’s A/D is relatively skewered because he’s one of my most played characters in PvE, my third most behind Kleese and Thorn if I recall correctly. Beyond that, Miko’s a character I typically pick for some of the sweatiest matches I play. Therefore, I’m quite often being targeted as the carrying healers such as Miko and Alani are targets of their own to coordinated teams.


Now, the interesting thing is that neither the K/D nor the A/D shows which ones I’m best at playing all in all. I can’t make definite distinctions which would allow me to accurately assess my skill level with each character, though I could try. My estimate, or guess may be a better word, would be that my top five is;

  1. Miko
  2. Kelvin
  3. Mellka
  4. Benedict
  5. I don’t know

I rank Miko the highest despite his K/D being the lowest I have amongst all Battleborn at 1,43 and the A/D being only at 4th place behind other supports such as Ambra and Reyna. One of the fallacies I might be making here is to underestimate my skill level with Ambra and Reyna simply because I prefer Miko’s playstyle. I’ve always said I prefer Miko over any other healer because he’s the only “on-demand” healer which can heal theoretically heal anyone at any time. Because of that mindset, it’s more difficult for me to assess the skill of an Ambra and a Reyna over a Miko. Miko’s also a lot more vulnerable for the most part than Ambra and Reyna which also on its own helps explain the differences in deaths.

Kelvin’s really the only one where the stats may justify my skill with him as all the ratios (or the three I’ve counted rather) with him are above average.

  • K/D – 6,58 > 3,59
  • A/D – 7,55 > 4,50
  • W/L – 0,81 > 0,77
    This however doesn’t bring in to account what you do throughout the games. Am I desperately chasing kills or am I playing the objective? Am I protecting my teammates? Am I doing necessary pushes? Am I interrupting their pushes? There are so many things that Kelvin does for instance which simply don’t show in any stats. The stat showing number of stuns shown in the accomplishment screen doesn’t help either since it doesn’t, and can’t say where those stuns were landed and whether they were crucial or not for advancing the fight in your favour.

Mellka’s not even in either list, yet I put her up there. I feel like I can play the harasser she truly is whilst fully utilising her mobility and the maps I play her in to my advantage. This however, is not shown in the stats either. I can play her in any mode, against virtually any team and still do at least decently with her.

Benedict’s has the 2nd highest K/D but has the shared second to lowest W/L at 0.65 together with Caldarius and Reyna, only getting beaten by Marquis at 0,58. So in that sense, I’ve arguably not done terribly well to help my team to victory with Benedict as my average W/L is 0,77. Still, I can play Benedict quite decently and play him successfully without using the “triple hawkrocket shotgun strategy”. I often play differently of what most other Benedict players play him like and can still do well with him.

At this point, however, I started getting uncertain as to which character would fit into the 5th slot. And to be honest, I still don’t know. The lines between characters started getting a lot blurrier, but I’d probably say that it’s one of these; Toby, ISIC, Thorn, Marquis, Ernest and Orendi. Except for Ernest and Orendi, all of them are snipers and it simply comes down to relatively poor aim. I can use them fairly well still, but I miss a lot with them and is thus the reason why I can’t decide on which one would serve the 5th slot. As for Orendi, my playstyle with her became severely crippled when they removed Let’s Bounce, thus why she’s not getting the 5th slot. And for Ernest, well, I’m simply not sure he’d exceed any of the other characters I mentioned.


#Discussion

I think @Nemosis327 is perfectly right in theory when he says this;

The reason I say that it’s right in theory is because of three otherwise practical problems, two being systemic problems and the other one being the human element.
I’d argue that it’s right in theory to begin with as it on some level reflects your capability to position yourself in relation to your enemy.

For deaths - Are you actively putting yourself in positions where you can’t win, and thus ultimately killing yourself? An obvious and very general example would be just simply barging in at the enemy without any reflection whatsoever. Other subtle examples may include staying within reach of Ghalt’s hook, in Marquis’ line of sight, within Phoebe’s “diving area” and so on.

For kills – Are you able to read the game properly and pick fights with those you can win against? Can you aim well enough? Examples here would include being Ghalt and pulling Kelvin out of his Sublimate, Mellka pushing Toby, Pendles bursting down weak targets etcetera.

However, in practice, one of the systemic problems I’m thinking about is matchmaking. In the first few months of Battleborn, K/D used to be a somewhat reliable factor to determine someone’s skill as the player base didn’t have the large deviations in skill as it has now as well as the fact that it didn’t continuously put high levels up against low levels. Even if you’re not a player who chases kills, farms new players or whatever, it’ll still affect your K/D in a positive manner in the long run unless you’re actively committing suicide in those matches.

The other systemic problems are the queues, more specifically Bots Battles, Warfare Rumble and Big Head Rumble. Granted, I haven’t played Warfare Rumble myself, but it certainly seems to be a place which is highly viable to chase kills in. Neither queue is balanced, and taking characters which can really abuse the added imbalance will highly profit. Pendles in Warfare Rumble and Ghalt in Big Head Rumble would be two such cases. And in Bots Battles, well, just farm your way through. Most bots pose no threat whatsoever to a good player and are easily made farmable for kills and multikills, ultimately rendering the K/D further irrelevant as a factor when trying to determine someone’s skill.

And then lastly, the human element. Granted, not everyone falls into this obviously as has been shown in this thread, but simply the fact that people apply too much trust and/or value in the K/D to the point where it’s virtually the only thing which matters. Of course, this doesn’t affect the actual K/D, but it’s certainly problematic how people are willing to treat and judge others based on their K/D rather than their contributions throughout the match(es).

In the example, me and @blainebrossart1 are talking about, we were a full premade and it wasn’t an easy win and neither of us went positive. That doesn’t mean that neither of us didn’t do our job.

For the most part, it’s easy, though certainly not always and it highly depends on the skill levels of the players you play with as well. You’re not going to automatically win simply because you’re in a pre-made.

Quickly jumping back to the same example, some of the opponents got somewhat salty after that match. A couple of them claimed that Blaine and @Slif_One were being carried, which would imply that they found me to be a contributing member of our team, despite going negative.

Beyond that,
Blaine excellently addressed this;

To use another example;

In that game, I went up against @Conwood and ended up going negative. And again, I’d like to think that I filled my role well that game. We were a full premade if I recall it correctly and it wasn’t easy because of that. And, I think this is the most I’ve healed in any match overall, so I was quite content with that performance to say the least, especially since I know the Fluffers are good players.
And while you could say that it’s okay if you’re a support, well;

Key word there being always. That means, according to this logic, that any character at any given time performed poorly if their K/D is negative if they won the match. Not only that, but it also completely ignores other concrete stats if one’s looking for actual numbers such as healing given, damage dealt, damage taken etc.
Once again jumping back to the example with Blaine, he took more than two thirds of damage than their entire team took and roughly 2.85 times the amount of damage as the opposing Boldur. One could then ask who did a better job at tanking.

No, he didn’t. He performed sublime overall and kept a lot of us alive through most of what was happening.

They didn’t do great, no.
And it was a relatively one-sided match, yes.

But it was an even match nevertheless and we had to work for everything we did. Every push, every kill, every moment we denied them and so on.

The opponents were good players in every sense of the word, just because we beat them doesn’t mean their bad, it just means that we were better.


I wonder if anyone will ever read all of this :sweat_smile:

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That’s too much to read on a phone! Lol :-1:t2::weary:

I skimmed through it and I guess we can have different perspective on whether or not K/d ratio contribute to player’s skill. There are many variables that take place but I firmly believe under a coordinated skilled premade team, going negative on a win is a huge hit to that specific player’s performance. Miko can be the only exception. Most of his time he needs to heal and is getting focused with minimal time to attack/get kills. I know this from experience and that varies across different players.

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Could you elaborate on this? In what way is GBX catering to specific groups?

Wait, they’ve been offering us FREE FOOD?! :smirk:

Grabs plate and runs off to find cater station.

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There is way too much here for me to reply to all at once, but on the topic of K:D I leave you all with this -

K:D was a pretty big talking point in the early months and while most of the CoD players were bragging about their K:D, some of us knew there were more important stats, like minions and W:L.

Anyway, time to read all of the posts in this thread in their entirety.

Also, LOL at that one match you mentioned @SirWalrusCrow hehe…

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You probably missed part of the discussion while you skimmed through the posts. We were disputing whether or not K/D contribute to player’s skill. Specially on a win within a full premade team. Based on the OP of your thread, it’s more towards K/D ratio doesn’t determine a win/loss type of topic.

Yes, there are other important stats like minion kills (which doesn’t exist anymore for some unknown reason), healing given, damage taken etc. However, I believe kill/death are the most critical ones. These 2 stats benefit and hurt the entire team the most.

I can see your point, but it’s hard not to have a defeatist mind-set out of the gate. Especially when you are paired with beginners. Then it just feels like a struggle with no fun. Trust me, I don’t like the opposite to happen (all beginners with no pr-emade), but I can understand the defeatist mindset. I don’t begrudge them(as they do supply a good challenge if you are on a decent team), but I’m just saying. Unless one of them is Boldur, then they are bad people.

@RayLightning
I’ll say this again, there is too much to factor into a game to determine if someone did well or not when just looking at K/D, especially when you are against opponents of equal skill. Here are some points about the game that aren’t on score board:

  • That Ghalt went negative but he still preformed very well. You can’t tell this because of several things that the score board doesn’t tell you. That entire match he was on point with his hooks. He was consistently pulling in someone for his team to pounce on, evidenced by the fact that he had a say in nearly all of our deaths (12/16). He didn’t end up getting many kills because, like I said earlier, I dived to sublimate the enemy team when someone was hooked. He may have only gotten one kill but he still did an excellent job of playing Ghalt.

  • Benedict had a fairly bad K/D at 4 and 7 but he still did his job as Benedict. He had the 4th highest damage dealt, being beaten by Orendi and WF just barely. At the same time he had the 3rd lowest damage taken that game. He did an excellent job of landing Hawkeyes on Orendi and Miko and would have secured more kills that game but, like I said earlier, I was body blocking his rockets.

  • Lastly myself. I’ve already pointed out several reasons why I did my job as a CC tank but Crow pointed out something you might have missed while skimming through his reply

Our ISIC, despite his massive size and the fact that both Ghalt and WF were on the enemy team, took only a little more damage than Orendi or Miko. He took so little damage because of the fact that I was in the front soaking up all the damage. Because of that, he was allowed to rain a massive 170K+ damage on the enemy team that game. And if you look in comparison the enemy teams tank, I died less but took more damage.


I’ve played with/against literally everyone in that game and recognize ALL of them as very skilled players. If any of them were randomly put into a game of just 9 other players playing in pubs, I could easily see them having some very high K/D along the lines of 20/2. But when the lobby is full of players that are experienced, the stats become much less impressive. We won that game because we had a better comp (more/better CC and a better healer for Monuments).

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Nah dude. ISIC is a useless character that always gets carried. Dunno what you’re talking about.

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Agreed. Needs buffs, Omega Strike should finish the Algorithm and end the universe by crashing the game.

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Then you’ll see how derailed this thread has become!

It exists in Meltdown still, and I’d argue that minion kills are more important than player kills. Both in Incursion and Meltdown. I’m too tired to do so thoroughly now though…

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It’s debeatable how “skilled” those opponents were with those toons without an actual video footage. I’ve met players that consider themselves experienced/skilled and yet multiple flaws are spotted in their general gameplay and in different scenarios. All I know is that I’ve never gone negative on a winning match in a premade vs premade battle. My hardest and most enjoyable matches have taken place in this setting and yet K/D/A stats showed how great/horrible every one did at some extent.

Back on topic: I’ve noticed a lot less full premade teams in the Incursion queue. Maybe the pub stomping bored them completely by now.

Friendly banter alright, @Nemosis327 is a really good Deande, I don’t see how anyone could try and debate that, but he plays who he wants when he wants. He has a very nasty Miko and an Alani that is nothing to shrug off either (remember that game on Monuments? Oh boy that was sweet). We talk ■■■■ to each other for fun and over half the time @Nemosis327 screws around throughout the game.

KD ratio has nothing to do with skill with a character, it’s the player behind the character. One could argue that Marquis is my best character if KD mattered with player skill (1000:100, which is a 10 to 1 KD ratio), but anyone who knows me knows my Benedict is scarier. Sounds like someone is either salty or Nemosis is just casually kicking too much ass to be stopped

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So here is an example of two teams of mixed skill levels. I’m pretty sure I was in a party with two of my allies. I won’t say which ones. The OM on the opposing team was something like 0/6 before he left. Please note that more kills would not have won them the match anyway! A couple of my deaths were from diving in the final minutes to try to put damage on the second sentry, something neither team was able to do by the end.

So how does this represent skill? Who’s the better team? Who’s the better player? Who knew deande was a tank?

I think you answered some of your questions yourself when you stated “mixed skill level”. Or are you telling me you can’t get a hint of how skilled that Thorn and Pendles are from those Kill/Death stats? Anyway, I moving past this derailing topic.

I was the deande and I had to fill the tank role and rescue allies. I have no problem at all with my performance as I led in multiple stats and my team won in no small part to my efforts.
The Pendles is in my league team and loves to roll hard on noobs as Pendles but he gets salty and stubborn whenever he is up against skilled players who know to look for him and he forgets he is not completely invis.

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I don’t think that game should be used as any kind of example. the only healer in that game did 3K healing and is using shield pen gear and health regen on a character that can heal herself easily. Caldy using heal power gear. Pendles feeding. Etc…

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How is this less representative than any other single match?

Well maybe it depends which mains you use? If you use more attack BB then well you will have more kills on your team than equally skilled tanks or supports on the same skill level and thus more likely having a positive KDA.

Btw I don’t know whats all about being negative on the end of the match. I can play a good reyna in a competetive match and went 2/3/25 and still being “negative” because my kills were “stolen”. Or do you count assists towards your ratio?

I see good players, when I play side on side with them on the battlefield. Sometimes a good team can completely shut down a certrain type of BB. And when this teampartner goes negative, although he played his best, doesn’t mean he is a bad player or had a bad match.

At the end the victory matters and this is not decided by kills but by playing the objective. So a player with 50/0 KD can lose a game, because he doesnt play the objective.

I played in some premades but without mic and enjoyed it too, but I get the general hate against them. Premades play the game and want to win as every player on the other too. Imo the premades, which try to humilate and roast newer players or be overly meta in normal matches are the ones to not like.

Sry for the long text.

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