Why did Rath get the short stick on Creative Design?

Hey guys!

Just a curious question for @Jythri or @dante_d_silva or @JoeKGBX or any super interactive GBX members. As well as a thought discussion with any fellow community members who care to share a piece.


Just to preface, I don’t dare to understand when and where you choose to respond, but in case this factors in “this is not me whining or bickering” more so a deeper look into Rath as a character and his kit.


As cool as Rath is conceptually, I can’t help but feel he’s just Minion robotics and Jennerit Military class leftovers…

What do I mean by that? Well…

Gaze upon death

https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/uploads/short-url/uw8d5McOSokh0vEyQd3SIipGwnr.jpg

These guys have a variation of Rath’s Crossblade… To make matters worse, it’s on a shorter timer, hits harder and to add insult to injury they’re mooks… Only thing Rath has going for him is Anger’s Echo here… Is that the bar between robot with swords and Master Swordsman?


How much blood do you have? I'm VERY curious!

http://www.nerdreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Battleborn-Rendain-L.jpg

YOU have NOWHERE to hide!

http://www.co-optimus.com/images/upload/image/Battleborn_Op1-AriaEntrance.jpg

Both of these guys have a varience of Rath’s ultimate in play.

In fact I’d say they undermine his by: Both being able to drop several of them at once, they act independent of them, last a heck of a lot longer and probably do more damage than his (Never stand around to check) … Why?

I don’t mind that Rendain and Aria spam Spinning circles… I’m more curious WHY that is his ult?

From what I understand Rath is a master swordsman AND a blacksmith! This is cool! Those titles rarely coincide in fiction, which opens up a lot of possibilities. Yet you have Rath, a master Swordsman express his expertise by…having him spin around in circles…

Anybody can do that. That’s a child’s move.

Needless to say but with the triple smack (damage,duration,cd) It’s exceedingly underwhelming as well. I rarely use it, and that shouldn’t be said about any characters ultimate.


This but with Swords and Parkour

https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/uploads/short-url/8vujJziFnxIGIfrNtBfeFBA096M.gif

With the addition of Heikegani. Rath’s entire identity is being utilized by other assets in BB.

Again, this is made worse by Heikegani’s Catalytic Smash being far more impressive (High damage, stun on impact no crossblade necessary) he even does back flips… :rage:


With how much of Rath’s style robots have copied, I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys release a Robo-Rath skin as a lampshade to that fact! (I would love this) :+1:


Lastly his passive. As a part of the Jennerit faction, Sustainment seems to be represented through life steal. So it stands to reason all Jennerit represent it through one way or another.

While others have to obtain it through helix choices (often eclipsing Rath’s own lifesteal as a result) Rath has it innately. (why 8 percent on melee though? and 11 percent on Not a Vampire? Can’t it be a clean number?!)

But why?

Rath has several throwaway levels this could have been implemented in his helix for something far more unique to represent his unique touch on the Jennerit faction.

Why waste such potential for something amazing ( Stacks built upon strikes leading into a precept finish? Stance changes? Rath can sharpen his blades while idle to give him a boost, Attack speed stacking, Bleeding effect, the list goes on!)


I greatly enjoy Rath, and feel he has a lot of promise.

Though as far as having a game play identity; I feel it’s widely diminished by how many (superior) similarities of his kit exist in the game. In my head, I would have preferred to focus on his unique traits (Blacksmith/Three blades) to create a more distinct identity.

If you guys are capable/willing/planning of doing reworks like Smite (mentioned over League since they’re also on console) Would Rath be a character you guys would look at?

If so, perhaps consider updating his quick melee? For a character totted as a master juggler (his level 20 title) being able to utilize your quick melee to manipulate your opponents should be useful in theory. As it stands, it’s so delayed and sluggish, it absolutely kills momentum when used and causes immediate regret.

Thanks for reading this far! I really hope you guys respond and share some insight! I’d love to have better context behind Rath’s design and why there are so many equivalent skills.

Cheers!

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But it’s a good trick.

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I’d really rather they didn’t. I don’t trust Gearbox to rework Rath to be more enjoyable than he is now and I’m glad he isn’t on their radar at the moment.

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Have you seen what happens to characters they redo?

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The reason why is that the passive is always Amplified by level 5 and they wanted to give him a choice to increase lifesteal in various ways. An entire helix devoted to something a character doesn’t have in their core kit would be pretty ridiculous. But I think a lot of what you’re feeling is that he was the first Jennerit they really created. A lot of their design is based off of him. So he doesn’t feel unique anymore. It’s sad

Now now, don’t make me want to play him. Tsk tsk

If it doesn’t sound like it, I definitely agree with you. Part of him seems to fall flat. But idk how to feel about him getting a rework. It’s pretty risky. What if they just Mellka him all up and they cut his lifesteal down to 5% before eventually “fixing him?” (No idea what’s on the other end of that magical rainbow)

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I had to mentally prep myself before going over Toby’s Double Hug changes (i was CONVINCED that their answer would be to nerf his stun helix somehow); in fact… I think i crossed myself, haha!

WHAT talking penguin? :smirk:

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Yes, Gearbox please completely ignore this thread. Don’t touch Rath or change him in any shape or form!

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There’s a couple of things I’d like changed about him, I just don’t trust the balance team to do it without breaking him.

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Same. I rather cope with the minor inconveniences than have the devs change anything.

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I agree with mostly all of this, though maybe not a rework entirely, Rath is awesome but at the moment with how he stacks against other characters he’s just a bit underwhelming in certain areas, he just need some buffs here and there and maybe some changes on his helix choices to give him a better way to be used other than what most people refer him to as a team disrupter, I for one rather play a Assassin Rath but of course when there’s people like Deande, S&A, Phoebe and Galilea, he just falls flat because they can do his “Assassin” Job better with fewer risks, more rewards and and with much ease while bringing more to the table.

For starters the Ult nerf I think was to much and I hope they revert the last two nerfs, It barely kills anyone now and doesn’t go through waves fast enough for you to come out unscathed, His base damage is pitiful compared to other Assassins Melee characters as most of them either have a higher base damage, get a damage boost early on or have a better melee helix options like Galilea or Pendles early on, he doesn’t have any form of reliable escape when compared to most of the cast, sure you can say “just give him a sprint speed gear and TfA and you’ll be set” but when I see Deande, Pendles, S&A, Attikus, El Dragon, Galilea, Melka, Kelvin, ISIC, Toby, Thorn, OM, Montana, Boldur, Caldarius, Ambra, KU and Phoebe who just have this escape by a push of a button, then again Rath falls flat again, His passive is weak for the functions and requisites for it to be good as the entire Jennerit faction have a way to lifesteal with better stats all around or really don’t need it because either their damage output compensate for the lack of healing or have better ways to heal up without depending on lifesteal.

Those are really the three aspects that I would really like to see some buff on for him to actually fit on the Assassin role rather than a Disruptor, Also maybe rearrange some helix options like his level 7 helix options going to his level 3 helix options excluding TfA, his 1’s for his 4 helix options while changing how CONSmash works so that stun without the use of crossblade and switching TfA to his level 2 helix option, then maybe changing some of his useless helix options to something more useful like for example:

Eviscerating Blade: Enemies hit by Crossblade take increased melee damage by 15% for 3 seconds. (as this would go in tandem with Softened Target and increase the reward of landing Crossblade)

Crimson Fastness: Each enemy hit by Catalytic Smash briefly increases Rath’s attack speed by 2% up to 10% for 6 seconds. ( As this would promote Disrupter Rath with a plus side to him)

Spin to Win: Rath’s melee combo’s finishing spin attack causes enemies to bleed on hit for 70 damage over 2 seconds. ( This will bring out options if you want to be more of an Swordsmans or Assassin type of player and its basically the same just without the extra spin)

Change Shield Syphon to Seeking Slash: Crossblade homes in to close range enemies but does 20% reduced damage. ( Since it will be between EB and AE it will give the option of if you want rewarding skillful aiming or to just want a weak but guaranteed hit )

This is what I would suggest, but of course it’s just my opinion on what to do to make Rath a better Assassin.

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How do you link videos? when I uplink one, it turned it into an image.

I had a really good, child spinning video to encapsulate my point!

Navigate to YouTube
Copy the URL link once you have clicked your video
Paste it on your post (make sure there is no space before the link)

My mistake must have been using the uplink button. To think it was so simple. Thanks.

Man I get the impression few of you actually read my post, (@akumakuro4004 and @epicender584 aside) over glancing till you found a trigger word. :worried:

@blainebrossart1 @Keadron @RayLightning
My post could care less about competitive viability, hotfix numbers or helix tuning… I was discussing his “creative design”

I can think of no other BB who has any part of their kit copied or improved upon to this degree.


He’s a master swordsman and a blacksmith. But from how he plays and by how many NPCs use his moves, you’d think he was a background character.

Heck his voice belongs to the sentries too!

Rendain and Aria toss better versions of his ultimate like candy.

Henchman robots spam his light sword techniques ad nauseum.

A ninja sentry styles all over (to arrogantly flaunt) his catalytic smash by incorporating high damage and a stun into it. No setup needed. He adds insult by doing flips too! F that guy. :laughing:

I can safely and sadly say he’s just a hodgepodge of other NPCs throwaway moves. Sloppy seconds if you will, and THAT SUCKS! He deserves better…

As it stands he’s too ordinary to capture the swordmaster/blacksmith fantasy.

This topic was made in hopes the devs would share some light behind his design…

P.S. edit. My definition of rework is the traditional MOBA one. See LOL as an example. Not the number tampering minor helix adjustments.

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[quote=“epicender584, post:5, topic:1555076, full:true”]

The reason why is that the passive is always Amplified by level 5 and they wanted to give him a choice to increase lifesteal in various ways. [/quote]

I’d say this is irrelevant. His lifesteal pre level 5 is negligible. The options barely make it worthwhile.

One improves on his casting. Bringing it closer to rival options on other BB.

The middle option gives some and takes more, where rival options are a pure net gain.

And the last one is what he should have by default. Making an afterthought passive amount to hp7 on a good day.

It could be so much more.

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This was a great read, thank you!

Though again, your complaints fall more under competitive viability over design.

More likely than not, if Rath is looked at, your suggestions would be how they’d go about it.

Just helix adjustments (to give credit, those were great ideas that better capture his fantasy) over capturing the ludonarrative dissonance of his design.

If this was their ideal version of him, I’d love to know, so I can accept it be disappointed and move on. But I’m betting there was a far more amazing concept out there!

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I read all of your post thoroughly. I really don’t have any issues with his design though. I’ve always viewed him as the basis for the Jennerit and all of them had something in common with him. I never thought of that as him getting the short end of the deal on design though, more just a compliment. He is the ideal Jennerit. I will admit that the design of the Ronins was more of a lazy rip off of what they already had done for Rath though. But I’ve never thought of it as the Rath being left overs from their design. Just them being copies of him, so I guess it’s a matter of perspective.

If other enemies are similar to him, I’ll just view it as a complement to Rath and how much the developers liked how he came out. They liked him so much that they used parts of his kit with other enemies.

I read your post however any changes made to his kit would make competitive viability a issue. You couldn’t just say x enemy has this ability so let’s give him this instead without considering who would be doing these changes and what impact it would have on the character. I would much rather he be left alone than risk him being maimed

I think rath needs a overhaul.
Hes stale and stagnant.
He Looks cool tho, but all his moves are boring and unimaginative lol

Im in favor of a Rath rework.

No. No, no, no. Just no. As someone with an unhealthy interest in Practical Historical Swordsmanship, I agree with the OP - spinning as a technique is creatively rather unoriginal, no to mention impractical.

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