Why did Rath get the short stick on Creative Design?

I’d just love to see some precept action outside of CS :confused:


Yeah, the main reason I brought it up was because Phoebe has a similarly shoe horned passive. The description makes that clear. Because he was the first Jennerit, giving gimme lifesteal made Skene at the time. Now that everyone is based off of him, he could afford a new passive easily. My main point isn’t that he should have that passive, but that’s why he has that passive. Because he’s the first

All I can say is that if they made Rath as good as the Ronin bots, I’mma be pretty damn mad.
I know that isnt all your getting at, but your comparing a playable character to AI that changes upon your own level of skill and now, how many ops points you have in a mission.
I know you love Rath and I know this post comes from a place of love and I know some of these issues you have are not unfounded.
As for having “clean numbers” on his skills and not implementing boosts such as sharpening blades or bleed all I can say is that he has been through (looks at calander) like 9 months of testing. Numbers have been tweaked through out these past few months to the point where they are decent if not good. Also, Implementing such new features would need more hours for creation and bug testing that could be better served somewhere else in the pipeline.

That’s a fair assessment and I can see where you’re coming from Blaine. Again, this topic isn’t a demand for a rework. It’s more of a ponder of what could have been.

If this is what the developers had originally intended when they set out to create a master swordsman/blacksmith and translate that fantasy into game play. I was setting out to ask the why’s behind it.

You don’t find it curious, out of all the BB that Rath (as far as I can tell) has his entire game play identity being utilized outside of him?

Out of the other 29 BB are there any recycled assets? One at all? (I don’t count the non modified version of Oscar’s grenade, as that was intentionally made to be generic)

This is not a complaint; more of a curious opportunity in my mind. Had they let the Ronin/Rendain etc keep those abilities.

WHAT could Rath have gotten? That’s the center of my topic. To ponder on the what could have been and the how he came to be who he is now.

To further illustrate let’s look at other BB.

Phoebe’s Phasegate, Alani’s Riptide, Reynas’ priority target, El Dragon’s clothesline, Galilea’s desecrate, Ambra’s Sun spots, Miko’s shrooms etc (I can go on) compliment their narrative.

Their abilities coincide with who they are as characters OUTSIDE of game play! For example:

Phoebe is an engineering genius. Big proponent for science, high society, music/fencing. She alludes to that with her rapiers, footwork, posture and abilities.

Phase gate utilizes her aptitude for science.

Blade Rush incorporates her fencing/music. (I’ll concede this ability is the weaker of the 3 narrative wise)

Her ultimate to me appears to be a culmination of her phase gate technology combined with her rapier technology. Creating something unique to her and complimenting her characteristics. It’s a great ultimate for her, both for game play and narrative purposes.

Does this make sense?

Again let’s revisit Rath.

He was a (later, THE) Keeper of the blades, the designer of the blades of his title, a blacksmith, sword aficionado, and the butt of sustainment/vampire jokes.

Not a lot to work with sure, but there are unique avenues to him. How was it incorporated into his game play?

Let’s see:

Laser projectiles
Energy Smash
Spinning in circles

Where’s the hint of swordsmanship? Of his pedigree as a blacksmith? The only thing about his game play that perfectly captures his character is his dialogue banter. It’s perfect.

To conclude, I’m enthralled with his character design (Dialogue/Appearance/Cosmetics) it’s the game play behind his design, I question.

At the end of the day, I’m likely to be ignored by the devs (shame they seem so interactive) and I WILL continue to play him regardless.

There will just always be that inkling of “what if”.

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Agreed. That blade was forged from a culmination of Rendain’s dagger and ALL the other keepers blades.

It’s a promise for revenge. And greatly illustrates (visually at least) his character.

Why it’s underutilized may be my biggest regret with Rath.

Outside of his sluggish quick melee, and lackluster ultimate! :kissing_smiling_eyes:


Oh I’m well aware of the impractically of a rework (at this juncture)

Since you read my post you’re aware I said

Would. Not Should. or do, or demand.

If this game holds up long enough to merit revisiting original characters (I wouldn’t limit this to Rath in case a bias was implied) I’d be all for it. I’m more curious on the decisions behind Rath.

Was this how they originally envisioned him?

Were limitations, time constraints, later changes to story lore etc factors behind who he is now and why he doesn’t “appear” to mesh narrative/game play wise.

The only things I would like touched up on current Rath would be minor things.
His Alt fire
His Quick Melee
His Ultimate

He’s perfectly adequate as he is now. As a sword flailing space vampire, not a (3) Sword master/blacksmith, Just have to curb expectations.

While Phoebe’s may be more shoe horned in.

It adds WAY more to her character than Rath’s does.

It incorporates her fencing, posture, musical acumen. And it’s generously revisited multiple times throughout her helix options.

Rath? Not so much.

If I have to answer my own questions (:sob:) I believe this hits the nail

If this is true, I think his identity got lost along development.

If he was the first Jennerit. Their archetypes for the faction seem to be Victorian, Military State, Space Vampires.

Current Rath embodies those characteristics just fine.

Seems to me after he was used as the Jennerit Space Vampire template. They revisited his lore/background to give him more depth/character but did not do the same to his game play.

I can’t fault them, if he was one of the first to be developed, they had a lot on their hands, and probably were unable to reiterate him closer to who he is now (lore wise)

IF big IF, they ever revisit characters I “feel” Rath would merit at least a glance; over reasons I’ve reiterated numerous times in this topic.

Seems to me if I have to conclude this topic (shame) It would be summarized by: He was the first one they came up with. The game evolved, he didn’t. The end.

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I’d agree bringing Rath up to a Ronin bots power level (9000+?) would be a bad call…AND wouldn’t fix anything.

My comparison begins and ends with “they share game play” That’s it. I mention the overbearing nature of the NPC equivalent skills (which I understand) to make a point. They’re clearly the masters of those moves. Why is Rath using them? Rath loathes Rendain, so why would he culminate his “ultimate” as a move Rendain tosses out like loose change.


Rath has so much going for him, couldn’t they have come up with something more inline with his lore/character.

The Ronin can have the laser slash, it’s a boring move. No Swordsmanship prestige required.

This is a think piece. I’m very aware, nothing here will happen nor did I intend it to (Outside of the quick melee! I really do think that can be touched up!)

I was reaching out to the developers to request some insight behind Rath. Who he is to them, and why he does what he does now. Is he just a Space Vampire as he appears to be originally drafted? Or do they connect more with the Revenge driven Sword master/Blacksmith who carries his sins on his back (Precept)

Maybe so. It still bugs me. 8/10 to go with 11/0 of Not a Vampire makes 19/10. What’s 1 percent damn it?!

It can easily be 9/10 to 11/0 or 10/10 to 10/0 or 8/10 to 12/0. It’s just one point!!! :triumph:

yeah I don’t see why Rath should be blamed for the laziness of making characters that came after him… you should be talking about how the NPCs that share his attacks are unimaginative and boring. Really. Leave Rath how he is. He was a member of the original cast, he’s bound to have simpler abilities anyways.

They didn’t make Rath after the NPCs, they made the NPC attacks after Rath. And I think those attacks (like dreadwind for Aria and Rendain, or crossblade spam from Ronins) should be changed.

Fair point, but I digress.

Those boring NPCs use core game play from Rath. That’s what I’m alluding to. THEY can have those moves, because they ARE unimaginative and boring (Heikegani is a gangster though)

My peeve is that Rath unlike any other BB in the game has his identity all over the place. I’ve already attributed his faults to being one of the first designed and that’s a shame. Is this how his story ends?

I also don’t feel that’s a strong argument. All of the other original cast seem to mesh their game play and narrative. Heck, game play wise several are more complex than the new releases! Why not Rath? Thus the topic title.

If they rework anyone, I “Feel” Rath merits a glance. Seeing as how they incorporated his “signature” techniques onto NPCs more so than any other BB (if any) that provides Rath a unique opportunity and “justification” to be revisted. Ideally closer to who he is as a character.

My topic on Rath is less to make him more viable, and more to capture what he appears to represent. I feel that alone merits discussion.

When other characters are brought up for reworks. It’s PURELY based on competitive viability. Or in different terms, just the game play.

Their Narrative isn’t questioned.
Players either want them changed to be “Stronger game play wise” or “weaker game play wise”

In summary,
My stance on Rath goes deeper than that, and I felt that merited a topic.

Rath’s skills are fun to play with. Gearbox isn’t going to change his entire kit, they haven’t done that before. It sounds like part of your argument is that Rath’s skills are boring partially because some NPCs have them.

I say we keep Rath’s skills. They show his Swordsman side, at least, and he’s more of a Swordsman than a blacksmith anyways. Thorn’s are even more boring IMO. Typical power arrow shot, a little AoE thing that is kinda more interesting now, and a… thrown… aoe… ball… wooooooo. Those skills don’t bring out the Archer or Hunter in Thorn.

What they should do is replace those NPC skills with creative ones.

They were never going to go anywhere. Game play wise, Rath is serviceable. I’m discussing the narrative.

I’ve said this In just about every reply, that it’s less about change and more about the why. I want to know more about the reasoning behind Rath and the decisions that lead to him sharing moves with NPCs. Especially the part why Rath in particular carries this duty.

Why is no one else being mimic’d?

None of you can answer that, only the devs, but it does at least open up some friendly discourse.

How so, if I may ask. Remember for context Rath is a “Master” swordsman (probably the only user of a 2-1 hybrid sword style in this universe) He displays this by:

laser beams
Knock up wave

Say, in an anime this could be argued as a bar for skill, prowess even! (Transferring friendship energy into blade beams! Through brute force transposing his will into Precept allowing it to launch an energy wave! Wild with passion and angst he spins madly in circles while flashbacks fly past before his eyes!)

In that sense.

Sure, I agree absolutely.

As for the blacksmith stance.

We don’t know that.

He Designed and forged the entire arsenal of the Keeper’s of the Blades. that must have been a daunting task.

Forged Precept, a visual indicator of his sins and regret. He made Caldarius’ arm dagger etc.

I can argue him being a blacksmith is a STRONG part of his character and one that COULD have been weighed in on heavily.

How many characters in any game utilize that trait?

Imagine how unique Rath COULD have been, had they opted for the path of most resistance. This is the heart of this topic, I’d rather contemplate and ponder over such what ifs; instead of having to reiterate over and over this isn’t a “REWORK! REWORK! REWORK” topic.

My argument (if there is one) is more to address the NPCs possess the superior versions of these moves. Why allow Rath to continue with the first draft concepts? A question. Not a demand for a rework.

The skills in a vacuum are serviceable. You can even imagine the discussion behind them.

“he needs some form of ranged harass” “laser beams?” “cool, add it”

“As one of our squishier assassins he needs to be able to make openings for himself to get in” “a knock up wave?” “cool, add it”

“We need a finisher for his 1-2, to complete the synergy” “aoe spin?” “cool, add it”

From this exaggeration you can get a sense, the skills were made in service to game play; Less about a cohesive narrative to his character… AND on that note, let’s segway-

To preface, I’m FAR FAR FAR FAR less enthused about Thorn. I’ve put far less thought into her, and rarely play her.

Even so, I believe I can still use her as an example for narrative/game play cohesiveness.

From my understanding of Thorn, is that aside from just being an archer and hunter; She’s also likened as Nature’s fury. A corporeal representation of the angst and rage of the Eldrid peoples amassed into one person. A “ball” of fury if you will.

So how are these traits applied in her game play?

Nature’s Curse

It’s an apt name. Fully charged arrows curse their targets. Narrative wise this hearkens to her fury and rage. What once blessed (nature) now curses. Piercing past excuses to the heart of the problem. And amplifying it. It makes sense from her narrative.


As generic a move this is (not so generic as to be mimic’d elsewhere in game :smirk: I kid)

It at least falls in line, with the Archer fantasy, this one move encapsulates Archery Prowess throughout many fictional worlds.

In comparison, Rath’s X slash can be created without swords or sword “skill”. They’re not essential.


I find blight interesting. Taken purely for game play it’s simple dot wave clear. But it also cohesive to her narrative.

Channeling her fury, she again curses (kind of her theme here) the ground in an area. What once grew and nurtured now decays. She’s taking away nature’s blessings (what you take for granted) the comfort of the ground you stand on. You don’t deserve it. It’s her way of robbing a foundation from those who took from hers. It works.

Wrath of the Wild

The titles (outside of volley) all clearly illustrate a theme. A narrative Cohesion, if you will :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:. Thorn the ball of fury that she is, funnels all that pain and sorrow of what was and what could have been and releases it. Her wrath is raw, untamed and demands to be addressed. It’s poetic.

Can you do this for Rath? Outside of anime parody? Hmmm?

That was fun, thanks for tha-[quote=“MeltedCow, post:31, topic:1555076”]
Thorn’s are even more boring IMO.

Oh you were talking about Boring…Well yeah, ok. I can see that…

Boring, however, has never been my horse in this race.


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At least his life steal is better than Caldy’s.


Makes sense narrative-wise why Caldarius’ life steal would be considered the weakest of the bunch (his legendary is good burst, but you know that) He was just recently sustained. Reluctantly to boot. Factor in that he’s also not a native Jennerit.

To compensate he gets a kick ass gundam suit. Fair trade.

Not to mention (before Beatrix) he was the only ranged Jennerit character on the roster.

That doesn’t make much sense. Beatrix is waaay younger and more recently sustained than Caldarius and she has the strongest life steal of all Jennerit.

How doesn’t it?

Beatrix is a native Jennerit.

Caldarius is not.

Beatrix is also a medical prodigy. Caldarius… is not.

Beatrix was sustained some 70 years ago, and has been actively pursuing her craft.

Caldarius has been rotting in prison for gods knows how long without (as far as I know) a defined time stamp for his sustainment.

What doesn’t make sense here? He’s also biologically SUPER tiny. I suppose jennerit life steal may work much like Midichlorians LOL.

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Well where does it make mention that race has an effect on sustainment? Atti can have heavier life steal than Rath or Deande and he’s a thrall.

Also, it isn’t even confirmed that Caldarius is tiny.

If they did, I might actually play Rath. He’s just so monotonous compared to most other melee characters.

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Nowhere as far as I can tell. This would be a great question to ask @dante_d_silva

It was just an educated guess, based off of what we have available. The Jennerit developed the sustainment process, and until Caldarius’ and almost Galilea, it was never intended for the “lower” races.

He (Attikus) was also highly augmented by Beatrix and her crew. As a comparison, Beatrix’s life steal outside her injector is sub par (10%) Her crazy life steal seems to stem from her science (the injector) that could explain why Attikus’ life steal is so extreme. Thrall’s were also native to Jennerit as far as I know. They were the wild life there.

I read somewhere he was tiny. I didn’t hear otherwise, so it stuck. Was more of a throwaway line for a joke too. You didn’t seem to laugh. :v

This is getting off-topic too. I like Caldy, but I didn’t make the topic to discuss him.

Do you have anything to add about Rath?

C̶a̶l̶d̶a̶r̶i̶u̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶R̶a̶t̶h̶

drops mic

On a more serious note, I feel like he should of looked more samurai like since he’s commonly referred to as one.

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