Why hasnt this been said yet?

Toby’s legendary lore item is the most broken legendary in the entire game. Four second stun on one of the highest DPS characters in the game? a ranged stun, thats also an aoe damage field. There is almost nothing that cant be killed by that, and its all because the legendary lore item that completely tips the scales of the character.

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It’s also the hardest legendary item to get, on a character whose ultimate skill is widely held to be among the worst, if not THE worst, in the game. Plus, the other stats on the item are pretty terrible. It takes a lot of work and you give up a lot of better bonuses to use that item. And the area effect damage on the mine is fairly weak and each individual mine gets much weaker when using the lore legendary. And the mine can be destroyed. And it’s the only CC on one of the squishiest characters in the game.

That said, I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just pointing out that, while Toby’s Arc Mine is a fairly powerful skill, it’s balanced by many other weaknesses, and I’m betting most would agree that Toby is pretty balanced overall.

I’m guessing you ran into a really good Toby player (I’ve been there, too). The truth is that there are many people out there that can make specific characters appear to be godly - but that has nothing to do with the character they play, and everything to do with the skill of the player. I completely own face with Toby and Marquis in PvE, and I’m ridiculously, embarrassingly bad with them in PvP.

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Well to be fair his ult is actually really good, big characters get decimated and the helix for it make small characters easy, and the whole is gear is hard to get is bad reasoning

Dont say its because of the double kill thing. And no, its not the worst, you know it got buffed right? Have you seen Ghalts ultimate? It does not matter if you can destroy the mine if it stuns you. After it lands it doesnt stun anymore so less point in shooting it. This has nothing to do with toby and everything to do with a legendary lore item that FORGOT there was a helix that gave it a stun.
It makes him a close range monster, like Benedict he gets in your face and stuns you for 4 seconds and you’re dead.

Dude his lore is so easy I have played two pvp matches and 1 story mission not even trying to get lore done and I have it all done killing on the rails is one of the easiest lore challenges ever why do so many people complain about it

Ok - finally, getting some teeth behind your argument. Can you tell us what you’ve experienced? I haven’t seen Tobys running around in PvP aggressively, double-stunning for a 4-second kill in a 1v1 encounter. Personally, I think that would leave Toby very, very vulnerable and render his shield skill kind of worthless, but if you can tell us what you’re seeing, maybe we can come up with some good counters/strategies.

I’m generally in favor of buffing instead of nerfing, but I do personally have problems with 2 (and only 2) character/skills in the game right now - Rath’s Dreadwind and Pendle’s ability to sneak behind lines and completely destroy your infrastructure mostly unhindered. So I’m not 100% opposed to discussing OP skills/characters. Your first argument didn’t really say much (besides Toby’s stun=OP), but now that we know you’ve got other experiences/stories to share, I’m absolutely open to hearing them.

Saying that a 4 second ranged stun doesnt belong on a super high dps sniper pretty much says it all. Nothing more needs said, absolutely nobody should hear that and think “no thats fine” because stun is powerful and 4 seconds of stun is insane.
See, its more dangerous up close, because its a lot easier to hit the mine skill up close. But as a sniper that should be his weakness, but this one legendary item makes it his strength. Assassins sneak up behind him? Double stunned, dead. Especially because crits, and thats assuming toby is alone. I mean just imagine if marquis could stun. Imagine that. Thats what toby is doing.

Toby is overall hard to use. Big target, squishy, not really fast, and you need excellent accuracy and timing with his weapon to have any impact.

I WANT to be good as Toby. Very much so, in fact. I absolutely adore the Battle Penguin. Problem is, I am not very good with him, and I don’t want to bring down my team in matches by stinking up the joint and feeding kills during the process of getting good with him.

Generally, I’ve only been able to play him in story (where I’m quite good with him, often leading in kills, pretty much always leading in damage – which is easy with that railgun crit – but good in story vs. good in PvP is apples and oranges sometimes) and when I have some good guys running in a party with me and I know they’ll back me up if I’m not entirely pulling my weight. I usually take the time to explain this on public channel before the match – “I’ll do my best, but I’m still learning the guy.”

So if Toby just comes naturally to you, I tip my cap and admit I’m envious. As much as I love the little guy based on his personality and character model, I don’t have the best feel for his mechanics. At least not in fast-paced PvP. I’ve seen GREAT Tobys, and would love to be that good.

  1. Not many people use him.

  2. A good portion of those who do use him are not very good with him (think most Benedict players before the buff).

  3. He is one of the weaker characters in the game right now even with the ult buff. At the very least, I think he needs a damage nerf and a health or forcefield buff.

  4. His lore challenge “Killing on Rails” is hard for some people to do.

Friend, I get what you’re saying, and I agree that Toby’s double-mine legendary is a powerful item. The problem is that I have a really hard time getting behind any argument that says, basically, “X is overpowered and completely self-explanatory” in the context of ignoring every other aspect of the complex web that is Battleborn. Even super-strong abilities can be tempered by character weaknesses, game rules, other characters and their abilities, and so on.

In a game this complex, nerfing one thing unilaterally without regard to anything else runs a good risk of introducing unintended consequences. That’s why I asked what player behavior / circumstances prompted you to post this. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, I just haven’t personally seen any game where Toby dominated though aggressive, 1v1 assassin-like play using the double stun. And even if every possible person agreed that his legendary needs a nerf, I would still say that discussing peoples’ experiences with the current state of things, considering potential counters/strategies, discussing the impact changes will have on Toby and the game, and so on, would be an important part of any meaning discussion on balance. But I understand your position, and this is your thread, so I’ll bow out here with no animosity. Good luck!

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Its nerfing a legendary, not a character. Easily the best character lore legendary. The context was given, this turns a sniper into a close-range master that can 100-0 almost any hero in the cast. He doesnt need to be an aggressive assassin, people come to him, sneaking up behind him. It may just be an issue with CC itself, re-applying and stacking, but the legendary lore item is clearly a league ahead of even the other good ones.

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How about phobe? her lore legendary gives her 1000 percent damage don’t get me wrong I know what u mean and it is op but still phobe has the best probally

Agreed, the fact the excuse is it is hard to get is ridiculous

Have you actually used his legendary with stun mines? The first 2 seconds are used by Toby waiting to fire the second mine.The travel path is unnatural in close quarters and it requires you to directly peg the enemy. Meanwhile anything out of close quarters you have to account for travel time of the mine and the where the enemy will be. The damage between the mines is considered by most characters as laughable and by the time the stun is over you either A) hit them with 2-3 spam shots which were probably not accelerated B) hit them with a charged shot or C) charged up your ult with just enough time for it to fire as they come out of stun if your timing is good.

You also can barely move, can be cc’d out of it, has a deceptively short limited range has a long startup time and requires you to commit to the target and face them while vulnerable and the damadge can be avoided with quick maneuvering especially on console which I don’t play on

.[quote=“nrennat, post:14, topic:1543412, full:true”]
Have you actually used his legendary with stun mines? The first 2 seconds are used by Toby waiting to fire the second mine.The travel path is unnatural in close quarters and it requires you to directly peg the enemy. Meanwhile anything out of close quarters you have to account for travel time of the mine and the where the enemy will be. The damage between the mines is considered by most characters as laughable and by the time the stun is over you either A) hit them with 2-3 spam shots which were probably not accelerated B) hit them with a charged shot or C) charged up your ult with just enough time for it to fire as they come out of stun if your timing is good.
[/quote]

So kinda 's kinda like how stunning with a regular mine and pegging them with charged shots (which can headshot ideally) beats stun into ult because the startup for the ult is so long and enemy allies may catch you mid ult and slaughter you compared to say Toby being able to boost away.

He’s gonna need more then that.

Lol I never use Toby’s stun mine you have to hit directly with it and that requires you to get to closer ranges. I’ve always used the slow since it butchers minion waves. And if Toby is getting in close range the Toby should die fast. He has a huge crit spot and enormous hitbox

Toby has to direct hit. I know a VERY good Toby and I saw him die twice in the same match. I hardly ever die as Benedict and get the same kill numbers.

Directly hitting with a fat mine at point blank range is a lot easier than you might be imagining it. Plus he doesnt need to get close to you, if you’re melee you’ll go to him. Like pendles. His hit box doesnt matter that much to melee anyways. 4 second stuns are disgusting.

well he’d have to land both mines though and not be killed by your team mates. It’s a powerful legendary but it’s not broken.

Landing the second mine is a lot easier than landing the first one. Because they are stunned. Also depending on his level he wouldnt need a second one for pendles. Hands down the best legendary lore item in the game