Why I think the current meta is breeding toxicity

Similar to Hoho, I waffle between heals and silence. If there are characters with escapes I plan on engaging, then I take silence. Otherwise, I take the heal. The pull is enough for canceling skills, so I’ll only take the silence if I want to prevent them (e.g. claw lunging away from me).

That’s the common misconception many players make across various pvp games and in Battleborn is no different. In BB, it pays to play the character that is assumed OP by peers and even by the general community.

In some of my very old posts about similar threads, I used to think Galilea was OP too. Mainly because just like you I was on the receiving end. My perspective changed when I played and fully mastered her. I recognized she isn’t broken as I thought she was. I learnt all her weaknesses and where she falls short. That allowed me to counter her easily. I no longer see Galilea as a threat if I’m in a group of coordinated experienced players.

I won’t deny Galilea is very strong but so are many other characters in Battleborn.

Maybe our definition of a character being OP/broken is different. Personally, I only consider a character OP/broken if that toon has no counter, minor weaknesses and can defeat all types of players and characters easily. For example: Benedict when he used to crit with his rockets, did more damage per rocket and fired infinite amount of rockets with the reload animation glitch. I was defeating players (that I know were a lot more skilled than me )with ease. Now that was broken! All of that, got fixed and he is just a strong character now.

Since we’re arguing potential capabilities here it may seem redundant for me to point this out, but Phoebe is one of the few characters who you do want more DPS on, she’s a hardcore duelist and since every stat increase that’s percentage based is multiplicative, considering her already outrageous values DPS is the way to go for Phoebe :wink: In many ways her and Gali are polar opposites, but Gali should not be able to leave her territory to approach Phoebe and win a 1-on-1 engagement that she (Galilea) has initiated.

I disagree, and I don’t take the community at its word, I base my opinions on experience. And as I said, I have a LOT of experience with this game. You can play a character all you want and sure you can learn the ins and outs and even gain an understanding of their weaknesses by experiencing them yourself, but it’s not until you play against someone who is as good or better than you with a certain character that you truly understand what it’s like to fight them. I didn’t learn to fight KU by playing him, I’ve played him maybe five times and don’t like him, am I wrong in saying that he’s not OP just because I haven’t played as him, or that his level 9 stun is devastating? I don’t need to play as him to know what he’s capable of. It’s easy to blind yourself into thinking that you’re just really good with a character if you play them excessively. I’m not saying that you’re wrong, I just disagree that playing a character is the best/only way to be able to formulate a credible opinion on where they stand in the ranks.

Umm Gali meets all the criteria for your definition of OP. I’ve played her extensively before and after buffs(and I can post screenshots for proof), mastered her, and I can say that she is indeed OP now after her survivability buffs. If you want reasons, read some of the stuff I’ve posted above.

I’m just going to make an example to demonstrate how Galilea doesn’t even meet 1 of my points.

Let’s take the third one: defeat all types of players and characters.
Galilea vs Kleese
A beginner skilled Galilea can defeat beginner Kleese? Yes,
A noob Kleese doesnt sit by his rift network and thus will die easily to Gali.

A beginner Gali can defeat an average skilled Kleese? No,
The Gali player will run into Kleese rift network and die. He will even use the pull when he is already inside the fire

Average Gali can defeat an average Kleese? Maybe
if Gali can pull that Kleese out of his network and stun him before he goes back into it

A skilled Gali can defeat a skilled Kleese? No
A skilled Gali will try to pull Kleese out of his rifts before deciding to attack him but Kleese will be in a spot that even if he gets pulled- n in any direction by Gali he will still be by his network. Ending up melting Galilea fast.

When I stated to master a character I didn’t just mean to get her to level 15. I also meant to use her against very skilled players and see how they deal with her as well. You’ll be surprised how such players make quick work of Galilea:

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Ever thought about how a good Gali should never try to approach Kleese who still has his rifts up? Much less alone? You’re setting some of those examples in Kleese’s favor and territory. Kleese can kill any character with ease if they try to fight him in his territory without taking his rifts down or going in alone. Not very good examples. As for the master part, I would consider myself as someone who has indeed reached a skill level to where I can fit your definition of mastered.

I was just counter arguing your statement

“Umm Gali meets all the criteria for your definition of OP.”.

I’m a very good player with many different characters including Galilea. I always try to pull a Kleese out of his network if I can. Yes, I won’t even try if I see him sitting in a spot that even if pulled him, won’t be enough to get him out of it. Kleese is a major threat to melee characters after all but out of his network he is weak.

Well you can’t exactly say that a beginner/average any character could defeat a skilled any character. It just doesn’t work like that as skill levels are a huge thing to consider in a game like this. The only characters that I could see this being true is with beta Ambra or pre patch Alani but they were so incredibly broken at the time that they were able to do that. Anyways, Kleese, as I’ve said before, is a major threat to all characters while in his rifts so this isn’t something that only applies to melees exclusively.

Please take another look at my comparisons again

The two major reasons why I don’t see that as a solid argument are:

  1. Galilea and Kleese are both territorial, and the tags do them justice unlike so many other characters. Neither should ever invade the other’s territory. But, they’re both good at invading the territory of other Battleborn, particularly Galilea who can initiate and push for her team, she is a brawler too after all. Against each other though, that battle is entirely situational, it’s not as simple as a face-to-face duel.

  2. Kleese is wildly overpowered, you just can’t justify denying that, and he was one of my mains before the buffs so I am very experienced with him. In fact I used him as one of my points in the OP. That taser deals ludicrous amounts of damage, then there’s his mortars and in particular the shield strip build, and of course finally his rift network. All of that was justifiable when Kleese had 700 odd health, he could deal huge damage but it came at a risk, he had to set up the rift network and stay put where now he can drift from the network to chase opposing players down with his taser, acting as a pseudo-assassin. His kit isn’t just defensive anymore, all of his tools bar the rifts can be used offensively, and with his health as high as it is very few BB can take him first. And as I said in the OP, Kleese benefited indirectly from the universal AoE nerf, as well as the Marquis nerf. His health increase was massive and pushed him from high-risk-high-reward to a low-risk-high-reward character who can afford to take risks.

But that’s not entirely the point of this thread, the point was that there are a few among the many Battleborn who are insanely powerful in comparison to the rest of the cast and that creates a power vacuum where this minority stand out as not just the prime meta characters, but the winning characters. Kleese and Galilea are most certainly among those few, deny that one or both is/are OP if you believe that, but tell me I’m wrong when I say that they’re prevalent, if not integral, characters on hardcore compositions where the majority would not even rate as viable. That is what makes those characters overpowered, among other things.

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A single tear just rolled down my cheek.

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The playstyle of Rath that Slif describes is nothing like how I play Rath. Of the three ways to play Rath (disruption, assassin, or quality (mix of the two)) I play the quality play style. It’s the disruption Rath that he’s talking about and it is something that only premades (legit premade teams with maps, characters and strategies figured out and planned ahead before matchmaking even starts, not just five friends playing together) can use and it is brutal.

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I might be deemed as insane here for saying this, but I think the game is fairly well balanced as it is. The only character I can think of that I might deem as OP at the moment is Galilea because of her two CC effects, just like Ghalt had. But beyond that, I really can’t see it. One thing I would like to see, for the sake of the discussion, would be the defining things that make a character OP. I know I can’t put my finger on it, that’s for sure, and I admit that my thought of Galilea being OP might simply be because of my lack of knowledge as to how to counter her. After all, a character isn’t OP because he/she/it excels at something, regardless of what it is.

At the moment, I’m not really struggling against any individual character besides Galilea. But I also realise that I can’t, by myself at least, try to kill/disrupt a Kleese as Deande for instance. One of the most frustrating things I have died by recently, is when Ghalt pulls me in, gets stunned by Kelvin and just get hammered by everyone. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the individual characters are overpowered. Take Ghalt for instance. I more or less never die in the hands of a Ghalt if he’s going at me alone. The problem occurs when I’m get Tag-teamed and got 3-5 players targeting me. But that’s teamwork from their part, not necessarily the use of “OP” characters,

A lot of people seemingly think that Miko is an OP healer, which may be partially true, because Miko may be one of the top characters which shows player skill. A lot of Mikos I run acorss either A) heals one player or B) ignores healing completely. I love Miko myself, so I’m really biased, but hopefully the points remain. He’s typically an easy target alone with a huge crit spot, team mates defending him is after all teamwork. Furthermore, his healing isn’t too strong unless you spec for it, both helix-wise and in terms of loadout. Not to mention that as it has been mentioned previously, wound is a mechanic in-game now and with that you can effectively make Miko useless.
I will say though that his R2 selfhealing could get a nerf down to 75%, or even 50%. But beyond that I find Miko as an individual charactr to be fine.

Going back though to the whole picture of the current meta, the one thing I’m missing at the moment is CC counters in helix choices. With the exception of Pendles and Ghalt’s Ultimate mutation at 10, I can’t think of anything which counters CC, and I’d like to see them to make at least a minor overhaul to the characters and give some of them either CC reduction of even immunity (immunity after using a skill or so which does not stack, definitely not a permanent immunity).

Also a side question about CC reduction, does it affect Galilea’s or Ghalt’s pull? I.e you don’t get pulled the entire way towards them if you have CC reduction on.

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Comparing skill levels doesn’t prove balance is my point.

No, you’re right, every character should excel at something, they all have their roles to play and they need to play them well enough to be effective. It’s when a character excels in more than one aspect, or is significantly better at their role than others of the same sub-class, that a the power vacuum is created and the imbalance between characters becomes noticeable. No character should be perfectly equal, otherwise they’d just be re-skins of the same template, it’s the gap between them that defines what is overpowered. OP isn’t a thing that exists just because it’s there, but when a minority of classes are not just better but significantly better than the majority, they become overpowered in terms of a game’s balancing.

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Now Kleese is OP too? I think I understand Slif. You consider all the stronger characters to be overpowered and that’s fine. If I’m wrong, what determines (in general) for a toon to be categorized as OP in your opinion? I gave my points, do you mind sharing yours?

I also want to ask you. Is Battleborn your first pvp game? There’s nothing wrong if it is and I don’t mean anything bad with this question. If it is not your first, then can you tell me another pvp game where it has various toons and they were all equally strong?

The game has 29 characters, but if you were to sit down with four other people and scheme the best possible team for Incursion, you’d suddenly find that a lot of characters never get a serious look-in - meanwhile, a few characters will never seriously be out of contention.

So there’s lots of fair debates about whether any given character is balanced or overpowered, but not, I think, much room to say that everyone is balanced. There’s a very wide B tier in this game. It’s still a B tier, and there’s enough characters in A to form a team exclusively of those.

I’m pretty sure no game ever has avoided this problem, though…

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I’ve explained that here, multiple times.

I’ve told you multiple times that I have played nearly 1,400 matches in this game, and I’ve explained multiple times what I think defines an overpowered character. First you say that I have no credibility because I don’t play certain characters excessively, now you’re implying that if this is my first PvP game, which it isn’t by the way, that would somehow discredit my 1,400 matches in this game? What other games I’ve played are irrelevant, that is not what this topic is about.

I’ve also stated that I don’t think all characters should be equally strong, it’s the GAP between their strength that is problematic. I don’t care how much better you think yourself than I at this game nor how much more experienced you think you are as a gamer, I don’t appreciate your condescending “questions” nor you derailing this thread.

Closed as requested.

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