#80

Don’t have time for full analysis but you would want to find some space for a Scav Sponsor somewhere (Although its Really Tricky to accommodate all three trees with a Hero Mindset this is my first take: http://thepresequel.com/Jack/55514100010015050014104101505510000051/thebest,lv70) Im also concerned with how LOM is somewhat wasted in a chuck build bit it can work for mobbing with the IVF used as a gun
Lemme think about it

#81

Ive got 2 jack builds one focuses primarily on jacks dying with nova shields. The damage is good but struggles some in boss fights still doing testing here and there on it.

#82

Just throwing this out there, Badass Jacks do more damage on the optimism nova than non-badasses. Also, optimism novas are boosted by roid damage. Throw on an avalanche and that should take care of any boss that walks pretty handily.

#83

So a melee roid shield adds extra damage upon explosion along with taking the skill that turns them badass? Thats interesting. I may toy around with this here in the near future, thanks for the input :smiley:

#84

IIRC, the badass Jacks deal twice as much damage on the optimism nova, so they do about 500k compared to the usual 250k.

#85

Mostly because that line “we did it folks, we did it” drives me a little nuts. The line is said when a badass jack comes out and it’s so weird. Also I don’t like doing things that increase my max health. And that is often connected to that skill tree as well.

Also though I found that I kick so much ass the other way (by making my holoJacks die) that I wonder why I should change it up. I will though. I’ll try it again. It would be neat to completely change up my playstyle and try it.

#86

The max health increase in paltry at best. The highest it goes is +33% when boosted to 11/5. At 5/5, it’s the same boost as Man and Machine on Wilhelm. If not for the digi-Jack max health and damage, I would never take it.

Also, the hero tree has so much more than just health. It has a combined total of +60% shield capacity unboosted, increased shield recharge rate and delay, damage resistance, and 2 forms of health regen, both for 10% or more unboosted. In all honesty, Jack may be better at tanking than Wilhelm, and up there with Athena.

#87

He definately Is better than wilhelm (Wilhelm’s not very good at anything) I don’t think it’s a Hero COM that’ll do it for him (Antagonist with Delegation is really really good at tanking, 50% Damage mitigation)

#88

I’m working on something with the role model right now thats also pretty good. 34% Damage resistance+ the 25% damage redirection from delegation makes you pretty tanky while the Jacks are out, while persistence keeps you covered when they’re down.

#89

So random thing, but since you brought up the Antagonist, have you tried the Min Min Lighter with it? Its not the most optimal weapon by any means, but the Min Min Lighter+ the Rerouter+ winning= hiliarity. If you group them up with a singularity, you can kill bunches of trash mobs in 1 shot. Its kind of funny.

#90

OP, what exactly do you mean by “pet build”? The Digi-Jacks are not designed to last, so whether you are mobbing or raiding, the best strategy is to make the clones blow up as often as possible, and shortening their health meters reinforces this strategy. I used to think Wilhelm was tanky, until I utterly facetanked EOS with Jack. Since the minions are the primary threat in that boss fight, I was virtually untouchable while my clones were active, due to them blowing up any minions that dared to come close to me. In fact, the EOS fight is really just a rehashed Warrior fight. In that fight, the Crystalisks are a more serious threat than the Warrior himself.

#91

WARNING: Long post ahead.

Best Foot Forward increases their duration when they kill an enemy, Bolster increases their health so they take longer to die, and Take Their Freedom regens a large percentage of their health when an enemy dies. Between the health returned from TTF and the time given by BBF for killing an enemy, you can extend their duration by as long as 7 or 8 seconds per kill at the beginning of the AS. Those 3 together can keep them out for quite a while, 20+ seconds or more if you’ve got a decent sized mob.

Debatable. Stronger clones help you conserve ammo, diverts enemy fire, control choke points and narrow areas, kill enemies you can’t see, etc… There is no “best” approach to mobbing.

As for raiding: yes it takes longer. But it isn’t overly difficult or impossible. At the end of the day, unless you’re speedrunning or doing time trials, the best build will be whichever one you can use to kill bosses. This has been tested at Eclipse/EOS, the time posted. It takes me 5 minutes to farm Eclipse/EOS with my CEO Jack, and it takes between 6-8 using my pet Jack. At most for me, the difference is 3 minutes, not really a big deal imo. The time it takes isn’t too important, as long as the difference isn’t too great.

I have always done this with both. I may not kill Eclipse/EOS fast with Wilhelm, but he can tank more of EOS BS than any other class I’ve played sans Jack.

You can also refill their meters. Either way works, and I still fail to see how one strategy is intended over the other when GB gave us the skills to do both.

I get why people love Leadership. Its one of the most innovative skills in the borderlands franchise. But its existence does not mean that GB designed Jack’s action skill to be used one way.

Jack can tank and do damage regardless of the build he is using. The only difference is the time it takes to do so. Most Jacks can do a constant stream of heavy damage thanks to AA and several fire rate buffs. If we go by the infinity argument from BL2, technically Jack has infinite DPS (theoretically anyway) while AA is active. Pet builds can’t do the same, because unlike Wilhelm, Jack has no skills that increase his pet’s fire rate. You can increase their damage to stupid amounts (435% is a likely scenario with Bolster at 10/5 and resolute active), but since they have a set fire rate, their DPS ceiling is capped at a certain point.

However, Jack’s damage per shot has a lower ceiling than the pets. With their roided melee attacks, they can do 12 million damage, and that’s without Bolster. There’s a picture in the forums that shows an optimism nova that exploded for 41 million. No matter what the build, no other Jack build is going to reach that kind of single shot damage.

So, I can’t quite accept the “best strategy” argument. Each approach has its own strengths and weaknesses, and each can be supported with the gear in game. I will concede that projection builds do blow pet builds out of the water in the DPS department because of the lack of fire rate buffs for the Jack’s, but in terms of survivability, I can’t see how one is better than the other. They each perform well in their respective contexts. Teamwork, with its constant health regen, works well for popping Jacks because the pets will not be taking most of the shots, you will. So having constant health regen to continually fight through damage is more important for that playstyle. On the other hand, TTF works well in the context of a badass Jack build because enemy fire will mostly be directed towards your Jacks. You’ll receive damage from stray bullets or take during your cooldown, so basically in bursts. Burst heals for burst damage.

Teamwork keeps Jack alive longer, while TTF heals him faster. Neither is inherently superior to the other, it depends on the context in which it’s being used.

2 Likes
#92

Hey no need to bash the concept of a pet build here its a valid strategy, albeit the less consistent one because pet builds rely heavily on Jack AI do deal their damage. It might not be my favourite build by any stretch of the imagination (I’m blaming COM design on that part), but If the stars align I actually think the pet build has a better chance at cheating EOS than any popping build could, as bolsters bonuses can get ludicrous if the Jack AI decides to hit the bosses (I’m not joking you can remove huge chunks of HP per shot).

PS Boom u can refute a point without writing a novel.

1 Like
#93

Sorry, can’t help the novel writing. Its a habit, but I just feel I make my point better when I explain my reasoning as thoroughly as possible.

If its that annoying for everyone though, I’ll try to cut back.

Also, glad to see you’re coming around. [quote=“Hoyle4, post:92, topic:505878”]
its a valid strategy,
[/quote]

Under all those walls of text, this was pretty much all I was trying to say.

#94

Oh, I’m all for extending the duration of the action skill. What I meant was, the health meters of the digi-jacks, not the action skill duration. Combining the digi-jack health diminishing skill with the skills that give them the shock nova and death explosion, means that Jack is most optimal as a close-range pet class, where as Wilhelm can switch between close and long range on the fly. Admittedly, the close-range approach probably becomes a liability in a map like the Holodome, but I haven’t tested this yet.

#95

That’s what I meant too. With BFF you extend the amount of time a badass Jack is out in general, while TTF extends the amount of time that particular one stays alive.

The actual action skill duration isn’t that important, the critical part is the upkeep of the badass Jacks. Extending the time they are out is the most important thing, and they don’t need to be out for too long.

The potential nova does 500k if I recall correctly. Optimism at 4 or 5/5 does about 250k when a regular Jack dies, 500k if it’s a badass (been awhile since I looked, but I’m pretty sure that’s it).

Badass Jacks, right out the gate, do about 200k, but they can increase that 200k with Bolster, Resolute, Collaborate, and Diversify, while Potential can’t be boosted by anything to my knowledge (maybe a shock duality O2 kit?) and the Optimism nova can only be boosted by Roid, cryo, and maybe explosive duality O2 kits, making the circumstances you need to get its max damage kind of annoying to get while mobbing.

So they all do around the same damage (except potential), but the novas have fewer, or far more conditional, methods for increasing their damage, while pet builds just have to stand still, get hit, or move a bit ( though I don’t like this one) to increase their damage.

#96

Jack is way better at tanking than any other borderlands character. At least the way I’m spec’d. I’m basically invincible when my action skill is up. Athena is still vulnerable from the sides, floor and back and doesn’t regen as much health/shields as Jack can.

2 Likes
#97

Either way, you’ve convinced me to try a Jack build based on making badass jacks who last long rather than fast dieing holojacks who die every 2 seconds. So your mission is a success. I’d like to see my jacks do well at some long range attacks on ECLIPSE.

#98

Athenas conduit coupled with near invulnerability for 10ish secs makes her a little better at tanking than Jack but an antagonist build comes close.

#99

I find that Wilhelm’s constant % based shield and health regen, coupled with the instant shield charge from Energize and divert power, makes him one of the tankier characters in borderlands.

I don’t play Athena often, but I do down with her a lot (I don’t use many shock weapons with her and attempt to go melee hybrid with an Avalanche, so that’s probably why). Claptrap is also pretty tanky, so long as you have the shield subroutine or you keep getting kills.