The grinder is needed in tps, becuase many items have no real drop source
I think weapons just need to have bigger lvl drop pools. For instance, in MVHM, say you’re fighting a lvl 62 boss and he can drop the equivalent of a Hellfire. It would be great if that boss could drop the gun with a lvl between 57-65 (5 lower, 3 higher). That way there’s a chance you could get a gun that could seriously help you in the near future so you wouldn’t have to grind again in just a couple levels but you could also get one at lvl57 that might be just a little better than your current purple weapons but could be super useful in subsequent playthrough with other characters at a lower threshold.
At 72, my gaige was farming slappy for a striker. And kept getting 70s and 71s. I had improved drop chances and that was still obnoxious. So Imma say a hard no thanks here.
I already dislike how random levels seem to be on weapons in BL1. Lol
Now, THIS is something I totally agree with. Seriously, the level banding at endgame needs to go. I get it that it is pretty useful to get a gun that’s one or two levels above you while leveling, but after reaching the level cap it’s just a truly unnecessary annoyance to get a gun that’s two levels below you. It simply adds absolutely nothing of value to the farming experience. I’m completely fine with getting totally random parts, elements and whatnot, but getting underleveled gear at endgame is something that really sucks the fun out of farming. I’ve lost count of how many times I actually got a perfect version of a rare item after farming for hours only for it to be a level below me. That truly feels like the game is giving you the middle finger.
It would be better I think for the majority of the game. Maybe they could change the rules for pre-OP-max level or OP level equipment that always drop at the highest level.
Bearing in mind that I don’t know if there’s any plans for anything of this sort, and I’m not privy to any extra information.
What if they gave Marcus the option (being as he did build guns a handful of times in 1) to level up a gun by 2-3 levels once per weapon, maybe for an exorbitant amount of eridium, or if added in a DLC some DLC exclusive currency that is difficult to farm (or perhaps diminishes per kill in a time period - so 50 units of it, then 40, then 30 capping at a low amount but still farmable if you’re that determined)
I’d personally like that system because you’d have to make the decision of “is this gun worth boosting” rather than another. But at the same time, I’m not overly invested in the part system - if loot kills well it’s good enough for me.
That would be nice in a sense. However I’m still of the opinion that if you want a higher level of the unique text item you should farm for it at a higher level. Hence the part 2 of my suggestion wouldn’t change the item’s level at all and just subject the player to a completely random reroll of parts on the weapon minus the unique part creating the red text and special effect. The goal of it would primarily be to put another cash sink into the game for people to blow billions of dollars on. Maybe allow it to be paid in cash or eridium. The cash prices I would have a fairly high base x the level of the item used. Essentially a tough decision while leveling and playing through the first time because you have other things that may need that cash at the time.
You might be saying this because in BL2 the parts didn’t play quite as big of a role. But in BL1 I had a lvl40 Hellfire that was FAR better than a lvl69 Hellfire I got from Craw just because of the parts that it had. If BL3 brings back a similar parts system like BL1 then rerolling would be a priceless addition.
It would definitely need to be eridium or something other than cash. Cash is too easy to trade dupe between players to get unlimited amounts (unless they somehow found a way to stop that from happening this go around).
Oh by all means, don’t get me wrong - I’d rather not see a way to do so, but if it was a feature they added I’d rather it was added with various stipulations to make it something you couldn’t just use to level up a nice NVHM legendary all the way up to cap (and post dlc cap if they add that in too).
I played Bl1 before 2 was ever announced. Even then I didn’t care for the parts system, I’d pick up a gun that looked nice, take it for a spin and if it killed well then that was good enough for me.
Granted proficiency, COMs and skills will have influenced the results quite a bit there (not to mention the DoT scaling with character level, unless I’m mistaken) additionally legendaries were stupidly common with the addition of the Knoxx DLC, enough so that you could literally find 4+ copies of the same gun in a single run (and many, many more if you did several Craw runs before resetting to prevent loot crashing, on console at least).
Personally I’m the sort of person who is happy as long as my weapons can kill, my skills can leave a bloody maelstrom and I’m able to get neck deep into the, metaphorical, pile of corpses and almost charnel house of combat.
Understandable. Not everyone is into min/maxxing. If the parts only made slight differences, like in BL2, than I wouldn’t worry too much about min/maxxing parts. But the Hellfire is a super fun gun and to have it drop at level 69 and be worse than some purple weapons is just depressing.
Everyone, including you I’m sure, gets excited when a legendary drops. People play these games for the fun loot. When a rare drop is really underwhelming it undermines that whole feeling you get from the drop. All I’m saying is that if we’re going to be underwhelmed by parts on legendaries then I think we will need a way to reroll.
the one thing that really disappointing me more than anything, was the message “make the game harder and find MORE Better loot!” was really super misleading. it could have said find the same loot and have a chance to find something the same level assuming you can get it off the boss at all. nothing was worse then grinding out overpower levels to have a better chance finding a level 71 legendary when there were plenty of overpowered 1 greens…and so on…
I used to be of the opinion that the idea of rerolling for parts or increasing levels of loot was a good idea, then TPS happened and the grinder ironically took the grind out of farming, which is a big part of Borderlands. So, I’m not in agreement with this. However;
Now this is a great idea! This way your farmed loot wont go to waste. The grinder made things too easy, the grind can get monotonous. This is a great middle ground.
Also this. Farming is important to the franchise, to this day people still farm in BL2. Let’s not take away the incentive to farm for good loot. Swapping parts may add incentive as your bad loot may not be so bad if it has just one good part.
As for the UVHM scaling debate. BL2 was difficult, very difficult, as it was supposed to be. Playing UVHM in TPS I felt like I was being babysat, it was only marginally harder than TVHM. The game was too easy, scaling was poor, and the grinder took away from a big part of the game.
For quest rewards, I do like the idea of their respective quests being repeatable in some way or another. But I am absolutely against anything that would badly affect the gameplay loop of finding that perfect legendary/unique/pearl in the endgame.
I dunno, I have a feeling that if people are only still playing because the RNG is so bad, does that really count?
I’m exaggerating of course, BL2 is also played because it’s fun, but RNG mitigation, if the amount is right, actually adds to a game for me.
Then again, most weapon parts (in BL2 at least) didn’t make THAT much of a difference, so it’s not like we HAVE to get the perfect variant. If people want to spend time doing that, let them.
Major parts like bayonets, barrels, or elements are a slightly different story though.
Arguable. These days I mostly do moonstone chest runs and whatnot and collect purple shields. I want a tediore quick shield with elemental immunity for every element. I also want a glitch hyperion quad with the gold material and shock element. The chances for these are so low, that without the grinder I’d have given up long ago (as a matter of fact I still haven’t any in dozens of hours of play).
Now I can guess what you’re about to say: “you’re just not hardcore enough, Borderlands RNG shouldn’t be watered down for casuals!” Meh. Occasionally levelling up a weapon or swapping one part per weapon isn’t much watering down, imo, and done right, could actually incentivize play.
I have no problem with the difficulty once you reach level 72 and can use all the best gear and skills. I just personally find the process of actually leveling up in UVHM is a long, painful, not very fun grind that often devolves into repeatedly having to farm the same top tier guns over and over again every few levels, since they seemed to have balanced UVHM’s difficulty around those weapons. I would like BL3 to be more like TPS’s UVHM difficulty while leveling, and then BL2’s end-game difficulty once you reach max level. That would follow the modern looter trend where the leveling process isn’t too painful, and then the real challenges open up once you reach end game. I feel that most people that play these games long term just want to get to 72 as fast as possible anyway to begin the end-game farming.
the one thing that really disappointing me more than anything, was the message “make the game harder and find MORE Better loot!” was really super misleading. it could have said find the same loot and have a chance to find something the same level assuming you can get it off the boss at all.
I definitely agree that loot drop frequency should be tied to difficulty level as should experience earned. That makes almost too much sense to not be implemented this time around. It would give everyone a major incentive to play the truly challenging difficulty levels if they knew that they could level 3x as fast and have a much higher chance of finding that legendary they have been hunting. D3 did this well and I really hope Borderlands follows.
Drop rates aren’t really the issue, it’s more the number of parts and how some can drastically affect weapon stats. Only a handful of items are truly problematic to farm for, either because their drop source isn’t a guaranteed spawn or is difficult to reach, or because they’re contained within a bloated loot pool. In those cases, I guess you could argue bad RNG.
You ought not to be so presumptuous. I explained my reasoning clearly. It’s nothing to do with hardcore vs casual, casuals can farm all the same and find the same level of enjoyment. But I don’t think any player should be able to acquire large amounts of legendary items so easily and just reroll for better stats, kinda takes away from the “legendary” status and the idea of farming IMO.
This is far from my experience, and I think it absurd to say;
I highly doubt the devs would make a playthrough mode so difficult that you could only complete it with specific items. That’s what DigiPeak and raid bosses are for, endgame content that requires well thought out builds and loadouts. You can complete UVHM with found gear, I have and you’ll find many others who have too. It’s difficult, as it’s meant to be, and yes of course it’s easier if you constantly farm, but that’s far from necessary.
I’m not saying it is impossible, just that I personally find it incredibly tedious without very good gear. Bullet sponge enemies isn’t my idea of a fun challenge. Running through UVHM with average green weapons makes slag almost a necessity on every enemy, not just Badasses; which is a lot more of a hassle if you aren’t playing a character that can slag on their own (I mainly play Zer0). If you don’t mind this then so be it, that is fine too. People like different things, but clearly there were enough people disliking BL2’s implementation of UVHM and level scaling that significant changes were made for TPS.
Like I said in my post, this debate is exactly the reason why I really hope they let you choose which difficulty you want to level up in and reward higher XP for tougher difficulties, assuming the whole NVHM/TVHM/UVHM idea returns in some fashion. It lets the players that don’t want the extreme BL2 UVHM difficulty to still reach end game, and it rewards those who like the tougher challenge with a speedier route to max level and better loot.
You’re preaching to the choir with me, I myself never suggested being able to to fully reroll something until the perfect variant drops.
My suggestion is the ability to change only one part, and then you can’t change any other part. This would make it so that if the gun you found is “off” by only one part, it’s still technically a perfect drop (once you pay the eridium/beat the boss/whatever the price is for changing a part).
Keep in mind that bayonets, barrel types, and elements are also parts, and these are more important than “+10% weapon handling” or whatever, i.e. most of the time you’d blow your reroll slot on these i.e. perfecting a weapon would still be far from easy.
Some interesting things might arise from unbalances though. For instance, if this system were to exist in BL2, I’m pretty sure the only grenade mods being used would be longbow or homing ones.
I suppose how you feel about this all comes down to what you want out of the loot system of the game, and we’re not all going to be the same. I like the Borderlands loot/reward system the way it is, with undiluted RNG as king. Changing gun parts would dilute that by a fair margin.
Changing a single weapon part as you suggest isn’t the same as just straight up allowing rerolling of any part infinite times. I still don’t like it for the same reasons, but it’s not on the same level.
The grinder in TPS is less egregious because for the most part it’s still RNG.
Above is my answer, but I’m going to try break down another aspect of why I feel the way I feel here if that interests you.
I think part of the reason I feel the way I do, is because at heart I am all about efficiency in games, trying to number crunch things to get the most out of whatever resources/weapons/skills (etc etc) I have.
With RNG as it is in Borderlands, it doesn’t really allow me to get too into that stuff until endgame, allowing me to just play.
At the same time as that however, it satisfies that side of me by giving me new, fresh guns to test and experiment with for entire playthroughs worth of time.
If we could swap weapon parts I believe it would bog down the play experience. It is a cool idea, and would be fun, but does it by taking away some of the awesome pure RNG loot the system already has. For me, I think it would take away more than it would give.
This is a good discussion, interesting trying to see this from others points of view.
There is definitely something to be said for encouraging trying new weapons, and to make the player want to find new stuff, rather than using the same guns.
In my experience though, after a while - and it’s a long while, to be fair, mostly thanks to the stuff you said - I already have “everything”. I tried all the gun types, I know what they do, and know which ones I want (or already have them all). Sure, the whole “you won’t know until you try, and you won’t try if it isn’t encouraged” argument is valid, but like I said, in practice (for me), it just isn’t like that after a while, and that’s the point where I would welcome a little bit of RNG mitigation.