Fatal mistake! 
You gave me shock and AAAARGH!, Electrical burn and Evil Enchantress… I will have an EASY time killing anything flesh 
For reference, here’s my regular Gaige build:
And also because there are just too many skill points… you literally have to pick the skills you want to avoid instead of the other way around.
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Allow me to step to the plate with my Melee Zero Unbuild Challenge:
http://bl2skills.com/assassin.html#555550555150500055510000000000
Class mod: Legendary Sniper
Shield: Fabled Tortoise or Bee
Relic: Vault Hunter Relic
Grenade mod: Midnight Star or Bonus Package/Contraband Rocket (but only in enclosed spaces…)
Weapons: none- if Krieg can make a run thru Bloodshot Stronghold sans weapons then so can Zero 
However, to be somewhat fair the only weapon this build will use is the Bane, one in each element- and if you use the Bane you can’t use the Bee. Have fun… 
Keep in mind the main flaw in this idea would be actually having to play the pre-sequel,
I don’t rate Gaige’s electrical tree very highly at OP8 even with a Leg Catalyst mod and the last hotfix patch buff to Wires Don’t Talk and some other buffs in that area, that’s why I stayed away from anarchy, I found her damage output just doesn’t quite cut it compared to the others without anarchy at OP8 (not crazy high stacks or shamfleeting, or should we call it “shamefleeting”, but a decent number of stacks). I do use a loadout of shock weapons. However, that could well just be me not being that good with the character, I don’t play Gaige, Axton, or Sal much at OP8 anymore because I like to focus my BL2 time on the other 3 chars who I like more.
@Carlton_Slayer that’s really terrible! Feel free to also take on @Chuck80 's modified challenge of making a build and letting someone else try to gear it to actually make it useable (no bee/DPUH/shamfleeting etc.)
Gear that might actually make this usable is a Law (but no Order- it is supposed to be terrible after all) and a FotF or the Rapier with an Evolution. And if you really want to make it usable how about a Bekah, Buffalo or Muckamuck with a Sham (of course, it wouldn’t be a strictly melee build then at that point…)?
Accepted.
(Brief pause without booting the game.)
Yeah, I forfeit.
If I swap the Midnight Star for something that won’t instagib me…this is still going to be truly awful. I love it.
I read @Adabiviak’s tale and it sounds kinda harrowing, I may have to go that route and actually go with anarchy if this is gonna work above OP3-4, but we’ll see, we’ll see.
I still foresee a lot of hiding, useless Infinity in hand, to let CuT get me above healthgate.
Maybe even long enough for the Landscaper pellets to actually go off…
It’s harrowing in a good way… good practice for practical, non-skill-tree skills, developing an appreciation for skills that were previously ignored (seriously, I love The Stare and have found a (yes, very small) safe and productive niche for the Midnight Star), and it reminds one how fun the game is with proper gear/build synergy. After a few full maps with these builds, when you re-spec and grab a proper loadout, you feel invincible.
Well, that’s true at least 
Didn’t have time to do it before, but the beast is dead. I’m never doing this again, unless I change my mind.
(Actually it wasn’t bad, but I felt completely naked without BSS and Discord. Getting my shield back once per turret would have been nice, as would some better fire rate. Buck Up might have helped more if DT wasn’t busy trying to facetank him.)
I had to go with some anarchy, harvested from the skags and loaders before Saturn. The Landscaper can actually kill stuff, provided you shoot them in the face as opposed to using it as intended.
Even at low stacks a Snorefleet would have ended it, and an Infinity I couldn’t fire just felt…off. In lieu of those I thought the truly atrocious Dahlminator and Stinkpot might be acceptable substitutes.
Guess it tickles a bit.
Bit more…aaargh, my ammo.
Run away!
Aaaaand dead.
What on earth is the safe and productive niche for the Midnight Star you found? As my nade count shows I very carefully left it where it was…
[quote=“cioran, post:76, topic:1543116”]Run away![/quote]OMG is that one of his shock lasers?
[quote=“cioran, post:76, topic:1543116”]Aaaaand dead.[/quote]Nice finish with the Stinkpot 
[quote=“cioran, post:76, topic:1543116”]What on earth is the safe and productive niche for the Midnight Star you found?[/quote]Killing Rakk from clifftops (which, conveniently, are present at many places where they can be found) is where the Midnight Star can be productive. It has to be a huge cliff - you need to throw it farther than the grenade lasts (which is quite far). When you find that limit, you can time it so the return shot explodes safely above you in a big wall of flak… just catch Rakk in there and they’re toast. Rakk timing is easy, since their flight patterns are fairly predictable… I’m working on getting the timing down to catch Buzzards (whose flight patterns are less so). As I think about it, it would probably be pretty good against big game - toss it just aside of the target so you have time to strafe a little and catch the target in the back. I’m thinking of enemies with a stature like Saturn, Slappy, or H3RL-E.
edit - I’m using this with Axton at the moment, though I think Zer0 could make it work well (since you can “position” enemies easier with Decepti0n). Rabid Stalkers are almost the easiest because once your turret is down, they tend to stick around gnawing on it; toss a Midnight Star really far, get near the Stalker when the grenade detonates and sets its return trajectory, and hop away to a safe distance (think of it like the Hammer of Dawn, but you’re the crosshairs 
). The further you toss the grenade, the more vertical the return shot is; ideally, you want the shot raining straight down. If you toss it really far, you have enough time to get two to lock onto you before you need to run for cover. I took out two Rabid Stalkers at once with this (once… often I’d only get one and would have to shoot the other when the turret ran out), but couldn’t get it to drop an Ultimate Badass nor Tubby Stalker… they squirmed around too much. I also took out Knuckledragger with it a couple times, and am off to see what else works (lots of orange gear out tonight).
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Yup. Thank Bog the AI is intelligent enough to miss sometimes or the local skags would have had deep-fried anarchist for their supper.
I left the ammo crates alone until I was nearly dry, thankfully the RNG weighted AR ammo over pistol this time. The Dahlminator isn’t as hideous as I thought (I know you like those spiker things, although I’m not entirely clear on why) but I wouldn’t have wanted to rely on it for DPS.
Heh, that’s actually brilliant 
I’ll twink it to my Axton and try it out with the Hammer of Dawn technique.
I can’t help thinking of the Sheriff of L. for Zer0. If he got in quick and nailed a minion, he might be able to stay in Deception long enough to toss one or two downrange and get out of Dodge with the Followthrough bonus. If he got Deathmark on her before killing the minion, it…probably won’t work, although it would be cool to try.
It would take some very timely gear-swapping in Deception to exchange the shieldstripper for the MS, mind. Not my forte, but I’ll give it a spin.
I actually like the Dahlminator on Gaige- in TVHM vs Hyperion Slaughter Dome I used it to keep her alive w/o dying once- something I can’t claim for my other VH’s. It’s not a weapon for fast and dirty play, but if you want to ‘snipe’ targets at a distance-like, across an entire arena- it definitely can do very well…
Yeah, I was surprised in a positive way. With the worst build imaginable and just starting stacks it still dealt very well with OP8 loaders.
I might have to rethink the whole spiker/dart thing, although I would need @Adabiviak (or someone else who knows) to explain exactly why they work better than they seemingly should…
That said, I’m very fond of fast and dirty play and will never like those guns - especially a Dahl which isn’t the Hornet - but the game has surprised me yet again.
Even so, the Wanderlust is truly beyond redemption.
Go on, Ada…prove me wrong 
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E-tech pistols: there are, of course, better weapons in the game (no crits, double the ammo consumption without the corresponding damage output), but I personally try to use as big a weapon variety as possible, so here’s how I make these work for me:
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Spikers - they do start to suck in UVHM, and the only way I am able to kill with them at a rate that I think justifies the risk/reward/ammo consumption is by using overleveled ones. If you’re not a fan of their game mechanic (or play at OP8 where there’s no headroom to buff them), pass. My favorite use of these is with Zer0 built for pistol fire rate - it’s a fun little challenge to try to get an entire magazine emptied into an enemy before the first one detonates (and even more challenging to get yourself into Decepti0n before that first detonation, so the enemy never knows what hit them). Maya also has a Hyperion one that she uses on Buzzards (insanely high accuracy and bullet speed make hitting them a breeze, even at distance).
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Darts (these are all on level at OP3):
- I use a (Vladof) slag dart with Zer0 when sniping, as in, sneaking to a rooftop and taking out enemies without them figuring out where I am (as opposed to using it like an assault rifle as many players seem to do). Keep Vel0city to a minimum, fire the dart, go into Decepti0n, the dart slags the enemy while you’re invisible, preventing them from seeing you. If your shot insta-kills them, you remain invisible to continue through the mob. The dart here is a slag source, not a damage source.
- Gaige uses a (Bandit) corrosive dart for mid- to long-range combat when her Anarchy stack is beyond Allen’s ability to describe with dialog (since they will correct for her inaccuracy without eating a Close Enough penalty).
- Axton uses a (Dahl) shock dart because the high fire rate makes it work (it’s only two shots per burst, but mine has a binary prefix, and fanning the hammer throws a lot of darts downwind fast). They do surprisingly well against Skeletons in Tiny Tina’s Assault on Dragon Keep and Hallowed Hollow.
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Uniques
- Dahlminator - Axton uses this when a BUL or PWR Loader is on deck with bullet reflection up; the darts will stick into the blades for damage. It’s mostly for the satisfaction of denying these Loaders of their reflection, not so much that the gun will be one-shotting them.
- Wanderlust - Gaige uses this as part of her Maliwan allegiance build, but she primarily uses it like Axton does the Dahlminator. Zer0, on the other hand, can do things with the Wanderlust that no other character can. With enough points in Vel0city, the Wanderlust darts can catch anything in the game, which is handy for flying targets (more points just means that it’s a shorter pursuit). Rakk, Surveyors, Buzzards, even Bandit Technicals flooring it across The Dust can’t outrun nor dodge Zer0’s Wanderlust darts. I initially made this video as post material for the “Every post must have a video” thread, so it’s random on purpose, but I’ll just leave it here (it’s OP3 in case anyone is wondering).
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That gave me a much-needed laugh, especially given my despite for Buzzards. Thank you.
I’ll be sure to try it.
I agree that denying enemies the (seriously) overdone reflection mechanic is an excellent goal in itself. That said, I’m not a fan of having a homing mechanic work in tandem with the Close Enough mechanic I don’t use outside raids anyway, especially when other weapons can deal with reflection by dint of having penetration.
Quite aside from that, I recently got to talking with someone on Derch’s channel about the Wandelust. We compared notes for nearly a week, trying to riddle out why he/she had never had that gun down them as Gaige, whereas I’ve had it happen every time I thought it was time to give it yet another chance. I’d like to think we covered most eventualities, but I’m still a bit in the dark.
My editing software can’t motion-track Wanderlust pellets, but I’m morally certain that their ricochets can have their homing AI broken not only when they bounce on environment panels, but sometimes when they impact enemies as well - instead of harming the enemy, they’ll fly back and hit me in the face.
Don’t ask me to prove that because I can’t find a very clear example in over 3 hours of video, but scrolling frame by frame it’s the only thing that adds up.
Even if the pellet were to bounce ‘only’ on an environment panel, it then becomes potentially dangerous if it’s within range of S&A - and the resulting explosion seems to ignore healthgate.
This is bad.
Still, I’ll be giving these weapons another spin for niche uses, I had barely thought of any of the ones you mentioned - Zer0’s tricks seemed particularly evil and thus enjoyable
The Wanderlust darts ricochet’s are inconsequential, even if you have Close Enough on deck. Here’s what the gun does:
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When you first fire it, the shots go wide and random, and are looking at a one-second travel time. During this time, they fly straight in whatever direction they left the barrel. Maybe some go up, maybe some aim towards a wall or the ground. If they hit that, they ricochet, but are still in this “acquisition” mode during this time.
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Ricochets at this point are not susceptible to Close Enough. To confirm for yourself: reset Gaige’s skill points, shoot the Wanderlust at the target dummy, and note the damage. Then add +5 into Close Enough and note that the damage remains the same even though the darts ricochet around the room before striking the target. Trickier to catch is the fact that the ricochet’s do not aim straight to the target, which they should do if Close Enough acts on them (Close Enough will only affect half of the bullets, and you may get a false positive from the rounds’ own behavior; the damage tells the story).
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At the one second mark, they decide which target to acquire, which appears to be whichever target is the closest downwind from them at this decision point. If, for example, a bullet ricocheted into a direction behind you, it may decide to acquire a target you can’t even see.
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Once the decision is made, the rounds will alter their path and begin homing in on the target. In this mode, they have about a ten second flight time before they expire, during which they can make full hairpin turns and do some impressive acrobatics (if their speed and an enemy’s are just right, I’ve seen darts wind up literally orbiting a Surveyor in mid flight until the Surveyor changes direction and the round recalculates its trajectory).
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Only Zer0 has the capability of doing this. Maya’s max bullet acceleration is 44%, where the bullets need a minimum of around 60% to catch flying targets in mid flight, which Zer0 can achieve with three or more points in Vel0city (more are needed for faster targets like Bandit Technicals).
[quote=“cioran, post:82, topic:1543116”]sometimes when they impact enemies as well - instead of harming the enemy, they’ll fly back and hit me in the face.[/quote]I’ve never seen this behavior? Even if a Surveyor (or Constructor) has its reflection shield up (which will reflect Wanderlust darts), the dart will bounce off and fly back around to try again until it hits the Surveyor’s unprotected butt.
I’ve got a whole article written… I really should consider posting it.
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Please do, you might be the only person crazy enough to have tested this lousy gun
this extensively :), everyone else just said “WTF, and it’s a PEARL…” and switched to something else 
I made a build based around it, but was to lazy to finish the thread.
Agreed, you should.
This is the part we were trying to work out, and the person I was talking to couldn’t remember having it happen either.
Mind you, impact on an enemy —> back to me is the part I haven’t got properly documented. It just looks very much like it, unless the dart hit a hidden wall directly by an enemy or something.
Impact on environment panel ----> back to me: lots. As I mentioned, Shock and Aaargh seems to be able to set them off if they’re inside its radius, but obviously I’ve checked for examples of there being no nova to set them off.
Plenty of those too.
Could it be that they get ‘confused’ (can’t think of a better word) by an impact on an environment panel if that coincides with them switching from ‘acquisition mode’ to when they actively choose a target? (1 and 3 in your example.)
I checked my kill skills to make sure that DT hadn’t just triggered one of them and removed a target from the equation, so I doubt he’s the culprit.
This is very weird.
(I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but I have so much time in the game that it’s quite embarrassing, and I feel pretty confident that I can spot what’s going on and account for where damage comes from or shouldn’t have come from.
Even if I get that wrong, that’s where all the super-slow motion video comes in.)
The homing mechanism glitching sounds the most plausible to me, but if it’s not a question of the darts’ AI getting their target wrong by mistake, I can only assume the gun is out to get me 
[quote=“cioran, post:86, topic:1543116”]Shock and Aaargh seems to be able to set them off if they’re inside its radius[/quote]That should be easy to reproduce. I tried it myself and the rounds were unaffected (I went into Moxxi’s bar where the dart players are and fired it there to keep them easily confined enough so Shock and AAAGGHHH could hit them, but if you (or anyone else) can reproduce this, we’ll be on to something.
[quote=“cioran, post:86, topic:1543116”]I checked my kill skills to make sure that DT hadn’t just triggered one of them and removed a target from the equation[/quote]Fun fact about the darts: if their initial target gets killed before the dart catches it, it will reacquire another target through what appears to be the same process (whatever is downwind and closest is up next), but without burning a second of “dumb” flight time, and continue pursuit (the 10 second timer isn’t reset though).
I can try, but I’m entertaining a guess or two that this can only be reproduced properly in combat. That ties in with what I guessed above with regard to the darts being in a brief state of flux between ‘acquisition mode’ and actually homing.
I was thinking of the fact that there’s a link between us and our airborne bullets (which of course we frequently use to confuse them for our benefit, like Trespasser swaps - or Flakker swaps if we’re feeling cheap).
That’s also why I checked DT for fresh kills: if the darts were in that hypothetical state of ‘undecided’ at the same time as they hit a panel I was wondering if the sudden removal of an enemy might have collapsed the waveform in a way that broke their homing AI.
I’ll give it another spin, though. I’m not sure I still have the recordings for the previous runs, but I should have a video project with POI’s saved…somewhere…I think.
(3-4 external HDs filled with video I never use, I need to get the hang of this moderation thing.)