Worthless Weapons

I would like this to be a comprehensive list of weapons that desperately need to be rebalanced in order to be viable in late game play. Unfortunately I don’t believe gearbox has the time, money, or desire to play test and generate this list, so I guess I will. I would love help in this so if you comment in this same format and I’ll add it to the post and credit you. If someone has already done this please let me know.

These will be based on my experiences with Zane, as well as comments on this post. Zane doesn’t really rely on hax abilities of the other vault hunters so I think he is a solid benchmark for how relatively weak these weapons are on M10. I will be using several weapons as benchmarks for what good weapons look like in M10 in their respective weapon types that are (mostly) balanced.

These Include:

  • The Krakatoa
  • The Hellshock
  • The Kaoson
  • The Bitch
  • The Stone Thrower
  • The Monarch
  • The Anarchy
  • The Flipper
  • The Bloom

Malak’s Bane
Benchmark: The Krakatoa
Limitations:

  • Low Base Damage (25% of benchmark).
  • High Ammo Consumption (200% Benchmark).
  • Slow Projectile Speed.

Proposed Buffs:

  1. Increase Base Damage by 200-400%
  2. Increase RoF by 25%
  3. Reduce Mag size by 25% and increase critical hit damage by 50-100%

Comments:
This weapon consumes far too much ammo for its very low damage. It has no place as a mobbing weapon or a boss killer despite good potential. The shotgun/sniper swap has good potential, but it deals far too little damage. I would recommend buff it 'til it’s broke and then adjust with tweaks to RoF, Mag Size, and Crit Damage.

The Nighthawkin
Benchmark: Kaoson and Flipper
Limitations:

  • Low daytime damage/Non-Extreme night damage.

Proposed Buffs:

  1. Add a visual indicator on the weapon to show whether it is night or day. Increase Base Damage by 30%.
  2. Increase daytime projectiles by 1
  3. Increase nighttime projectiles by 2

Comments:
Currently, the Nighthawkin becomes usable by night, but only usable. The daytime damage is far to low to be usable during the day, and the day night cycles are too inconsistent and unpredictable to bother keeping a night hawkin in your inventory for when it is night. Doing the above buffs will bring it to the damage of 1-2 Flipper projectiles and slightly above the initial impact of a DP Kaoson. It should out DPS both of these at night, as it should given the ridiculous criteria of that strength.

The Ripper:
Benchmark: Flipper and Monarch
Limitations:

  • Extremely low Base Damage.
  • Melee buff is weak and short lived.
  • Maximum damage output lower than most guns minimum damage output.

Proposed Buffs:

  1. Increase melee buff duration by 400%. Increase melee buff potency by 100%.
  2. Increase Base weapon damage by 50%
  3. Increase Critical Hit damage by 25%

Comments:
This weapon is properly worthless. Its damage ceiling is somewhere around a single projectile from the Monarch or the Flipper. It needs extreme,dramatic, and drastic buffs to even be remotely usable. This weapon should be buffed until it’s broken and then adjusted.

The Flood
Benchmark: Bloom
Limitations:

  • Low Base Damage.

Proposed Buffs:

  1. Increase Base Damage by 150%
  2. Increase Reflected Projectiles By 100-200%
  3. Increase Critical Hit Damage by 15%

Comments:
The Bloom is essentially a 1:1 comparison for this gun and currently it does over 3 times the damage of the flood with a tighter burst spread. It first needs the damage cranked up and then have more reflected projectiles to set it apart from the Bloom.

The Woodblocker:
Benchmark: The Krakatoa
Limitations:

  • Low Base Damage
  • Low Ammo Efficiency

Proposed Buffs:

  1. Add a passive effect so that every consecutive shot in the burst does 25% additional damage so that the final shot does 100% damage.
  2. Raise Base damage by 25%
  3. Increase Critical Hit Damage by 25%

Comments:
The wood blocker isn’t awful. It is clearly supposed to be a high crit damage tack driver, and for the most part it is, but it lacks umpf. Snipers have a real problem in this game, you can carry only 204 rounds, but they have very similar base damage to a lot of pistols, smgs, and assault rifles. The amount of ammo you carry implies that these weapons should be much more akin to a power weapon, but they just aren’t. If the excuse for this is something along the lines of “Well for Fl4k it is extremely strong” then you are balancing you’re balancing your game wrong.
So, as life plays out I had a Bloom with the - I think - highest critical bonus of 21% as well as an Unforgiven with the max critical hit bonus of 432%

With no additional bonuses at all the Bloom somehow does more damage than is on the card. The card says 17k, but it hits for 17.7k. Also, I didn’t use it without charging it up, but it doesn’t make a difference besides the boosted shot anyway. And as we all know the boosted shot gets splash damage bonuses.

The Unforgiven (by narfkeks)
Benchmark: The Bloom
Bloom vs. Unforgiven:
Crit multiplier: 2.68 vs 11.8
Bodyshots: 26.34k vs 5.91k
Critical hits: 70.58k vs 70k
Limitations:

  1. Extremely low base damage
  2. Often inaccurate iron sights
  3. Low peak DPS for a high skill weapon

Proposed Buffs:

  1. Reduce critical strike by 30-40%, Increase base damage by 150%
  2. Modify spawns so that only versions with precision sights spawn

*Comments:
It’s obvious how incredibly poorly the Unforgiven performs and even if you can hit critical all the time, which isn’t realistic at all, you only get the same DPS as the Bloom. Add to that the bonus from splash damage for the Bloom and the fact that basic weapon damage is far easier to come by, which widens the gap for body shots even more (but let’s the Unforgiven outpace the Bloom on perfect critical hits) and the Unforgiven has no chance of ever being the centerpiece of current Borderlands 3 builds.

The Electric Banjo:
Benchmark: Brainstormer
Limitations:

  • Wildly Upowered In Mayhem 10
  • Bad Element

Proposed Buff:

  1. Allow Procing on enemies who are alone
  2. Increase damage caused by a significant amount.
  3. Allow for drops in different elements.

Comments:
I know this is a relic and I know this is a little rough because I am not exactly sure how it works, but I can still tell you the thing is too weak. There are only about 3 relics worth a damn in this game and this one has a ton of potential, but it simply isn’t strong enough. The major limitation in my opinion is the element. Shock is pretty useless in mayhem 10 if you are not fighting guardians because the damage reduction of shock damage for anything but shields is extremely limiting. A perfect version of this would be radiation for me but cryo, fire, and corrosive are all still much better options. I will edit this as I play with the banjo more, but it doesn’t seem like it scales to mayhem 10 at all.

List of Guns and Equipment To Add to This List

  • Vanquisher
  • Alchemist
  • AMDS
  • Compressing Storm
  • Fire Storm
  • Monocle
  • Tankmans Shield
  • Lyuda
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Skeksil , benchmark gargoyle. PLEASE

I think your saying the gargoyle is underpowered which is fair but it is far from worthless. It probably could use a buff, but there are a lot of other ones I want to get in here first.

The Gargoyle is not underpowered. It’s weakened by being corrosive only, but against armored enemies, it can be devastating.

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The gargoyle is extremely strong actually if used at the proper range. It’ only limitation is self damage, which is dangerous, and being corrosive.

This benchmarking way to attack the issue is really great. My only remark is that some of the weapon you’re using for said benchmarking are barely viable now (The krakatoa isn’t exactly great)

I’d also put the Headsplosion (Unseen Threat or Skullmasher for Benchmark) on the list.

On the other hand, I’m not sure if the Storm and the Firestorm (provided you are referring to the sniper, not the grenade) belong on that list. Sure, they may not be quite as potent as the Kratakoa, but I don’t think they are underperforming if you take them for a quick spin.

Are you sure about that, good sir? The Kratakoa is still arguably one of the strongest snipers in the game. I will however say that the Bitch isn’t very good since it can only really get good dps at the cost of eating through ammo at a very fast rate and hitting a lot of cris, compared to guns like the Flipper than you can spam away.

I disagree, the sand hawk is, but it’s not that important.

Even “the best sniper” is still the top bit of a pile of ■■■■ right now. Damage are bad to average, ammo consumption is through the roof.

The krakatoa would be en average gun, roughly equal to a stone thrower (and still a bit worse), at best, if it draw ammo from the AR category.

Currently the krakatoa is not worth using.

Have you even tried that thing in the last, oh, idk, 6 months? There’s not a lot of snipers that give you more than 30k base damage on M8 at the cost of only 1 ammo. It deals roughly 3 times the damage of a stone thrower with a better crit modifier.

Pro : Good base damage
Con : Charge time/full auto/low accuracy meaning you’ll likely miss at least a third of the shot if you don’t use it close range (In which case, lots of other weapon are more pertinent than a sniper rifle)
Very long reloading time
The volcan that pop after does no damage to enemies, but often OS you
You’ll deplete your ammo after two annointed

The stone thrower, for the comparaison, give you base damage of 20k (more with masher affixe), great accuracy, percing bullet and the ricochet mechanic which is quite strong

That goes for basically any sniper. Anointeds aren’t a good benchmark for weapons with low ammo pools (like, there’s literally bosses that take less sniper ammo to kill than anointed aggro tinks). It’s best to just hit them with a Lob and move on.

agreed if it came fire and shock as well id use all 3! but corrosive is only works on droids/machines and certain type of health which limits it and stops it from being op at all things so i agree with your point.

Would like to see the Sleeping Giant smg get some more love. I loved that gun leveling, its so accurate, but i recently tried it again at m10 and dropped it quick. It sucks so many low level weapons are fun to use but when it counts max level they are replaced.

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The Tidal Wave actually has fairly decent damage, but it hits the entire broadside of a barn with that spread and enemies can actually backpedal as fast as the projectiles. Wouldn’t take a lot of effort to make it decent.

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Garg can shred even non-armored enemies; it’s just that good. I’d argue that it being corrosive is what keeps it balanced in the first place.

The idea of using solid weapons as a benchmark is pretty genius. Great idea really. Now, we have to first find benchmark weapons that fill a similar purpose, which in some case could be hard. For example we have very few good “slow crit machine” type weapons. I mean stuff like the Unforgiven, which makes it hard to compare, but here is my scenario for this type of comparison:

Benchmark: The Bloom
Comparison to: The Unforgiven

The Bloom can shoot around 6 bullets in 3-4 seconds and gets it’s full bonus that way, so we can assume an effective fire rate of around 1.25 to 1.5. Now we take the gun to the dummy and empty it into the dummy, adding up all damage (once for critical hits, once for body shots, obviously with no other bonuses applying to the gun) . Then we divide each result by the amount of shots fired to get the damage per shot and multiply it by the fire rate to get a generic DPS value for body and critical shots.

Now we do the same calculation with the Unforgiven and adjust it’s base damage in a way that it stays at least 50% below the Bloom in body shots, but surpasses it by at least 50% on critical hits. There is a bit of tinkering to be done and I will try to give you relevant data soon (although I “suffer” from a weird display bug that divides all displayed damage values I do above 9999 by 100, which leads to me doing damage in the tens of thousands and not in the millions, so keep that in mind).

My method by the way isn’t perfect as not all shots will always land, especially not on critical hits, but it’s overall more effective than just blindly buffing certain conceptually good guns. The critical exploits that are currently possible make it hard enough to make any critical damage based gun good without making those exploits even stronger.

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I am actually going to use the bloom as a benchmark. IT is still underwhelming but it is absolutely functional. It also a pretty much 1:1 for the flood and why it is such utter garbage.

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I personaly went back from M7 to M1, and every single legendary weapon is viable and kills any trashmob very fast. I have a lot of fun doing the playthrough again :slight_smile:

No annoying modifier, game is quite easy although you have to be carefull at some moments

I understand the frustration, and i feel the same. But as soon as my favourite weapons were useless, i decreased the mayhem level because i hate to be forced to play whith a limited amount of weapon, when there are 100+ legendaries…

But in some way, i understand that in the highest difficulty, not every weapon can be viable and kill things fast. Only some of them. Though, the number is quite low as i understood from you guys

I know that M1 is not the end game, but somehow, it is…

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Wait no, you want the gargoyle as a benchmark.

So, as life plays out I had a Bloom with the - I think - highest critical bonus of 21% as well as an Unforgiven with the max critical hit bonus of 432%

With no additional bonuses at all the Bloom somehow does more damage than is on the card. The card says 17k, but it hits for 17.7k. Also, I didn’t use it without charging it up, but it doesn’t make a difference besides the boosted shot anyway. And as we all know the boosted shot gets splash damage bonuses.

Now the overall results on my 2 guns:

Bloom (charged up):
Body shots: 5 x 17.7k plus 59.7k on the boosted shot
Critical hit: 5 x 45.7k plus 159.7k on the boosted shot

Charging up takes around 3 seconds, the 6-round-burst takes 1 sec tops (more like 0.7 seconds) to be unloaded, now counting in reloading (1.8 secs) we can take an estimate of 148.2k damage over 5.5 seconds for bodyshots or 388.2k damage over the same time if all hits are critical. Also, as you seemingly can only shoot a volley of 6 shots, increasing your magazine size decreases the DPS as long as you don’t double it’s mag size to get out 2 volleys.
DPS:
Bodyshots: 26.34k damage per second
Critical hits: 70.58k damage per second

The Unforgiven:
Bodyshot: 6928, let’s say 6.9k, so 41.4k after a mag of 6
Critical hit: 81.7k, so 490.2k after the mag

Here we can just divide the 6 shots by it’s fire rate (1.21) and add it’s reload (1.9 seconds) to its DPS timeframe, which adds up to 6.85 seconds to fully empty it’s mag and reload, let’s make this 7 seconds for easier calculation and as people are not perfectly timing their shots anyway. Also, this gun profits from a bigger magazine size.

The DPS:
Bodyshots: 5.91k
Critical hits: 70k

Direct DPS comparison
Bloom vs. Unforgiven:
Crit multiplier: 2.68 vs 11.8
Bodyshots: 26.34k vs 5.91k
Critical hits: 70.58k vs 70k

Conclusion and how to fix the Unforgiven
It’s obvious how incredibly poorly the Unforgiven performs and even if you can hit critical all the time, which isn’t realistic at all, you only get the same DPS as the Bloom. Add to that the bonus from splash damage for the Bloom and the fact that basic weapon damage is far easier to come by, which widens the gap for body shots even more (but let’s the Unforgiven outpace the Bloom on perfect critical hits) and the Unforgiven has no chance of ever being the centerpiece of current Borderlands 3 builds.

My idea to solve this would be to effectively lower the critical damage multiplier from it’s current 11.8 to 10, but increase it’s base damage by 150%, which in my case would be an increase from 6.9k base damage to 17.25k, which would lead to the following DPS:
Bodyshots: 14.78k
Critical Hits: 147.85k

Now, while the bodyshot DPS is still absolutely horrible the gun would now exceed in one-shotting enemies with precise shots and good aim would make it a deadly gun in the hands of Amara, Fl4k or Zane, depending on the build that is. It would have a niche. It still would probably barely be used at all as it’s not really a comfortable gun to use as it punishes bad aim heavily, but that’s the idea of the gun.

Edit: Fixed some numbers that were still standing from earlier iterations of this post.

Edits 2-5: Correcting grammatical errors. I really shouldn’t do stuff like this when I’m tired^^

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