You have the source code. Add to it to fix hw1 mechanics

I am very happy with how the game looks. It has been mostly stable for me as well. HW 2 is mostly flawless. Performance is for the most part awesome as well.

However. HOWEVER, the HW1 experience provided is truly inexcusable. The modders working on the Homeworld:Remastered mod ( http://www.moddb.com/mods/homeworld-remastered )could have done this level of integrating HW 1 into HW 2. I am talking about the mechanics, where the repair ships need to latch on, the formations break, all the things mentioned here on the forums. I’m not intending to create or maintain a list here as you probably have that going internally.

A few questions/requests.

•Why were certain mechanics not simply added to the source code? You can’t get away with modding level changes every time. For example, repairing ships from HW 1 can not repair each other (A-><-B), nor can they repair corvettes.

•I understand the decision to shift balance of the HW 1 races, but you have gone too far. They are slightly modified copies of the HW 2 races now. There was no brutal hard counter between destroyers and frigates for example. This entirely changes the campaign as well. There is hardly any feeling of HW 1 nostalgia, why did you take it this far?

•Dynamic difficulty in campaign. Terrible for HW 1 because you can capture so much more. Please un-do this.

•Mothership-kill victory condition in multiplayer. Seriously? The match isn’t over just because your MS dies… Shipyards exist for HW 2 races which can make the MS redundant. The HW 1 races are pretty potent with carriers also. Don’t turn this into a rush to MS kill.

•Missing features. Don’t do this, seriously. Bad decision. Add back fuel, HW 1 tactics etc. You’ll only get positive feedback for doing that.

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Some things I agree with, others not so much.

First, you can’t just copy and paste code. Things like that tend to break the system and reduce hard work to ashes. It’s just not that simple.

Fuel was never a huge issue, but can be played with in the classic version. The problem is that it, like the mobile harvesting, it breaks the game. I figure fuel will be easier to implement, but it was only relevant in two missions of the campaign and never in multiplayer. I figure ‘something’ will be done about the repair jets, I just don’t know what.

Balancing was inevitable, when things moved to the new system, and frankly, I love it. Now the different races have some significant differences (tiidan destroyers have more overall firepower, Kushan can fire their ion cannons at 90 degree angles) and this provides a far greater tactical experience. The Heavy Cruisers are BEASTS now, not just platforms for four ion cannons, they are HARD to kill and pack one heck of a punch. Missile destroyers now have an entirely different function, no longer strike craft blenders, they are mobile artillery!

Dynamic difficulty was always present, didn’t you notice? Didn’t you wonder how people gained twelve or more multi-beam frigates?

Mothership kill requirements have always been there unless it was a carrier-only match. (unless I am mistaken, its been a VERY long time).

I never said they should copy paste code. I’m a modder myself so I know just fine that you can’t copy paste.

Fuel would not “break the game”. It might be a bit resource intensive in big multiplayer matches, but it should be an on/off function there.

Balancing isn’t equal to taking away the dynamics of entire races, only to give them those of other races for easy integration. That’s what a bad modder would do.

I’m pretty sure dynamic difficulty is HW 2 only as a feature. There’s quite a few multi-beam frigates in the original, more than in the remaster.

The game now ends when the mothership goes boom. The HW 2 devs knew better and made killing all production capable ships the win condition. Shipyards anyone?

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I completely agree. I would like to hear from Gearbox why they did not implement many HW1 features essential to the depth of the gameplay.

Yes HW:R is basically using an upgraded HW2 engine, but that’s not really an excuse to homogenize all game mechanics to HW2 gameplay given that they have access to the original source code.

A lot of the mechanics feel like they have been gutted for the sake of saving development time and money e.g. support frigates having to latch on to capital ships to repair them like HW2’s collectors, absence of fuel for HW1 strikecraft, the ineffectiveness of formations and lack of lateral combat movement in HW1 strikecraft etc.

Almost none of these changes are even justified under the excuse of gameplay balancing.

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The tough and expensive decision would have been to knuckle down and just build a new Engine from scratch that could accommodate both games unique mechanics. But that’s a ballsy choice when you don’t no how many units your likely to shift on a 16 year old game.

Further “Engine” overhauling options would seem to be a little limited at the moment and I suspect most of these "Mechanic"choices that are grinding peoples gears boiled down to "we don’t know how to make it work that way in the time we had to do it in, using the money set aside to do it with "

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Supply frigates dock because the old 'float spray cone" mechanic broke the engine, this has been mentioned several times. It just doesn’t work in the new engine. If we are fortunate, it will be fixed, but it’s not a game breaker.

What exact game mechanics are you referencing here? Fuel was only present in one of the three homeworld games, no one seems to complain that it wasn’t implemented in Cat and 2. I find it very, very hard to see why people are so upset at its loss…Also, you can still play the classic mode.

Yes, I think it would be neat to have it back, but not so much that it breaks the game, the fun or really anything else for me.

What exact game mechanics are you referencing here? Fuel was only present in one of the three homeworld games, no one seems to complain that it wasn’t implemented in Cat and 2. I find it very, very hard to see why people are so upset at its loss…

I wager its also one of the reasons those that were mad for HW1 when it first came out were not all as keen on HW2.
Same goes for all the other things that are being talked about. If you were to draw two circles and in one, place all the people who were bothered by the “Game Mechanic” changes between HW1 and HW2 and in the other circle all the people who are flagging the things they think are off with the remastered version Today.
I reckon you’d have one hell of an overlap.

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Well… I played both and loved them both. I just happen to know they are two separate games, and the force of technology and time changes things. I feel that HW2 stands just fine on it’s own, despite the plot holes that need to be filled.

I agree… though its telling the series was not continued after HW2.
I wager if they had been given another 6 months back in the day. To fill in some of those holes, both “plot” and" Mechanic". I imagine things would have turned out a whole lot different.

Still… can’t turn back the clock :smile:

Seriously, what happened to all the bentusi?

The Beast ate them ? :smiley:

I saw what you did there.

I know that it would be completely asinine to assume that writing game mechanics from one engine to another would be as simple as “copy & paste” but given that the dev team had access to the original source code, "it broke the engine" sounds more like ***“it was too difficult and time-consuming to implement”***.

Yes this isn’t a gamebreaking issue but it is one of several examples of homogenized gameplay that really impacts a unit’s effectiveness and tactics. Support frigs are now much less useful as they cannot directly repair strikecraft with their heal beam and they are also far less efficient at healing capital ship fleets as they must endure the slow and tedious “latch on” animation for each ship they want to heal.

People did complain and were disappointed that fuel wasn’t implemented in HW2. Sure, it was probably the minority of players but that’s not a valid excuse to go ahead and remove fuel altogether from HW1 in the remastered version.

Because its absence removes depth from gameplay and strategy.
Also, classic mode does not have multiplayer nor does it have the remastered graphics - part of the point was to play HW1 with upgraded visuals not HW2 with a HW1 top hat.

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That is unfair, you don’t know if that is the case, so don’t assume anything. It’s entirely possible it’s just not compatible with the system.

I personally don’t find that fuel really had a major impact on anything, it really didn’t -add- depth because usually your fighters died before their fuel ran out, or the game ended after your big assault. Most people, from what I can tell, are upset about the dock-jump exploit which was -never- intended to be part of multiplayer.

This is getting a little out of hand here.
If something doesn’t currently work in the engine if added then it’s Gearbox’s job to MAKE IT WORK. Gearbox is not a modding team that can’t alter source code. They are now the owners of the franchise and can do whatever they choose with the source code. I bet that all the graphical features were incompatible with the engine until it was made compatible by adding elements to it.

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This logic certainly does apply to a lot of the singleplayer missions where the enemy is at your doorstep but its not always the case - depending on the combat stances a player employed (such as evasive tactics), fighters would run out of fuel for the tradeoff in being able to dodge heavy enemy fire.

Also refueling was prevalent in HW1 multiplayer where corvette walls were consistently used and had far more longevity than a group of intys/scouts that you would expect would die before they refuel given their expendability.

Erm, I shall disagree here with “not a game breaker”, support frigates are now mostly useless in a fight as they take a trillion years to “dock” on what they got to repair. That choice just doesn’t work with their low maneuverability and their large size, unlike collectors in Hw2.

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A game is not just it’s story, or it’s art. A game is it’s story, art, sound, music, gameplay, and even UI meshing together to form an experience. Different people will fixate on different small aspects of it as iconic moments of that game to them. If this was Homeworld: (Art) Director’s Cut, or Homeworld: Remade, then I would still disagree with the choices, but they would have been more acceptable. But we were repeatedly told this would be homeworld, how we remembered it. People remember corvette walls, people remember asteroids vanishing. Just because each of these details isn’t important to everyone doesn’t mean leaving them out is appropriate for Homeworld: Remastered.

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It is a stupid cheap out how they went about homeworld 1 remastered. They could make it only homeworld 2 remastered with a second campaign and right now nothing would change at all. All homeworld 1 remastered is, a mod for homeworld 2 remastered with homeworld 1 assets nothing more.

On top of removing features like LAN in the classics (a modder fixed that for homeworld 2 classic) and making frigates take beatings like a fist through paper (and blowing as fast as soon as someone glances at them with a big gun)

Not to mention

Chris Faylor: There’s a couple of other notes too. We had to make sure that the classics were out there no matter what, as untouched as they could possibly be for the sake of history. The untouched classics, the only changes that we’ve made is to enable them to run on modern operating systems.

… right.

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LAN play is an entirely different subject, what’s wrong with simply hooking up through steam? Yes, I can see in some circumstances (say at a LAN connected workspace, or if you are trapped out in the middle of nowhere with limited internet) where it could be useful, but those situations are in a drastic minority.

I -whole heartedly- disagree. I would compare some arguments against HW1R as “Forgetting the tree by looking at the leaves” but it goes beyond that, many people are scrutinizing the aphids at this point.

The good news is that GBX -is- listening.

On the support frigates… I still find use for them, and they have saved many frigates of mine, as well as the mothership. I would like to see the old mechanics (corvettes would be WAY beefier as a result), but I won’t cry if it never happens.